Faulty goods over 6 months old - proving fault was there at purchase

xmfclick

I bought a smartphone from a Carphone Warehouse shop in London in January 2012. Eight months later (September 2012) the phone started playing up, sometimes not charging when plugged in to the charger, and by November it had stopped charging altogether. (Both charger and battery worked fine when I used them in an identical phone, so the problem was not with either of them.) Clearly there must have been a problem either with the charger socket or the charging circuitry in the phone itself. I took the phone back to CPW for repair. However ...

1. Carphone Warehouse say they can't repair the phone ("even though we tried" -- ahh, how nice of them to try) AND they say the phone isn't covered by the manufacturer's warranty (though they don't explain why, and anyway the 'net says the warranty thing is a red herring).

2. Trawling the Interwebs tells me that if a problem shows up with a product after six months the onus is on the customer to show that the goods were faulty when they were purchased.

My question is: How do I show the goods were faulty when they were purchased? For that matter, what does the six-month rule even mean? (thinking about it, I guess it's meant to preclude claims when things stop working because of wear and tear).

Further information:

(1) I work abroad and didn't come back to the UK till February 2013.

(2) I informed CPW about the problem back in September 2012, via the problem-reporting service on their website, and emailed them back and forth about it for 3 months. I explained the working-abroad situation and we had an exchange of messages where they said I could send them the phone but they would not send it back (I would have to come and collect it). In one message they said the phone would be repaired same-day if I took it to one of their walk-in repair centres, and on the basis of that statement (promise?) I decided not to send the phone but to wait till my next planned trip back to the UK and take it in, and I told them this. On taking the phone in to the Oxford Street centre (on 1 March 2013) I was told that I had been misinformed and (a) the phone would take up to two weeks to be seen to and (b) I would have to come in person to collect it. As you can imagine, I am not a happy bunny, especially as I am abroad again (minus phone).

From what I have read elsewhere, CPW have a dreadful reputation for customer service. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I should proceed?

Thanks in anticipation ...

Leo2020

I would probe them further on why it's not covered. Usually things which aren't covered under a warranty are consumables - for example batteries, fair wear and tear, and customer damage.

To prove that it is an inherent fault would normally mean an engineers report. Try taking the phone to an independent phone shop/repairers.

For items under 6 month old it is assumed that the fault was present at the time of sale. After that you, as the purchaser, have to prove it was there at the time of sale. It makes sense as most inherent faults will show up fairly quickly and if it has been working for 6 months or more then there is a good chance that the fault wasn't present at the time of sale - hence you have to prove it was.

dalesrider

xmfclick wrote: »

they say the phone isn't covered by the manufacturer's warranty (though they don't explain why, and anyway the 'net says the warranty thing is a red herring).

Thanks in anticipation ...

I would contact the manufacture on that point and see what they have to say.

xmfclick

@dalesrider :: Good call. I phoned Samsung just now, lovely lady answered, I described the problem, she was puzzled that CPW said Samsung wouldn't cover the phone under warranty as the phone (but not the battery) carries a 2-year Samsung guarantee. I need to get the phone back from CPW and Samsung will collect it for repair. Fingers crossed, hope all goes well from here.

This does go to confirm the Carphone Warehouse reputation for appalling customer service. They will try to fob you off with excuses, rather than take responsibility.

BTW, I had exactly the same problem with a Tomtom satnav, but this was dealing with them direct. They flatly refused to repair it and basically said "Prove it was faulty when you bought it and take us to court".

spacey2012

xmfclick wrote: »

2. Trawling the Interwebs tells me that if a problem shows up with a product after six months the onus is on the customer to show that the goods were faulty when they were purchased.

..

Incorrect, it has to be inherently faulty, this is the most confused term on consumer boards, inherent means the fault was present at manufacture.
Poor design and building a product that is not robust enough to withstand normal use for a reasonable period is an inherent fault.
It does not mean it had to be sold broken.

Go back to carphone warehouse and serve them with a written letter stating the fault and informing them that they have refused to accept that the product they sold was inherently faulty and denied you your consumer rights, date and sign and place that this serves as Letter before action, make sure it contains full contact details..
Post the same letter by recorded delivery to the head office.
Then you can file to the county court for a judgement for a remedy after the 14 day LBA has expired.

Leo2020

spacey2012 wrote: »

Incorrect, it has to be inherently faulty, this is the most confused term on consumer boards, inherent means the fault was present at manufacture.
Poor design and building a product that is not robust enough to withstand normal use for a reasonable period is an inherent fault.
It does not mean it had to be sold broken.

Go back to carphone warehouse and serve them with a written letter stating the fault and informing them that they have refused to accept that the product they sold was inherently faulty and denied you your consumer rights, date and sign and place that this serves as Letter before action, make sure it contains full contact details..
Post the same letter by recorded delivery to the head office.
Then you can file to the county court for a judgement for a remedy after the 14 day LBA has expired.

I agree with your first point about an inherent fault not meaning it had to be broken at the time of sale but saying that CPW have denied the customer their rights is wrong. The OP has not proved an inherent fault therefore CPW don't have to do anything. Yes, if the OP had proof which CPW had ignored then send a letter before action but they haven't.

Sometimes calling the manufacturer is the easiest thing. You have rights with the retailer but that doesn't always mean it the quickest/best way to resolve the problem. Hopefully Samsung will sort it out for you.

wealdroam

spacey2012 wrote: »

Incorrect, it has to be inherently faulty, this is the most confused term on consumer boards, inherent means the fault was present at manufacture.
Poor design and building a product that is not robust enough to withstand normal use for a reasonable period is an inherent fault.
It does not mean it had to be sold broken.

My understanding is that an inherent fault is a fault that was present at the time of sale but not necessarily apparent at that time.

Whether or not the fault was present at manufacture, is not important.

dalesrider

xmfclick wrote: »

@dalesrider :: Good call. I phoned Samsung just now, lovely lady answered, I described the problem, she was puzzled that CPW said Samsung wouldn't cover the phone under warranty as the phone (but not the battery) carries a 2-year Samsung guarantee. I need to get the phone back from CPW and Samsung will collect it for repair. Fingers crossed, hope all goes well from here.

Shame Samsung did not go that extra bit and arrange to collect from you.....

All going to CPW is going to do is add extra time and arguements into the matter.

bod1467

I read the OP as saying Samsung would collect from HIM once HE got it back from CPW. Ergo CPW no longer in the loop?

xmfclick

Thanks to everyone for your comments. Yes, Samsung said they would arrange to collect, but CPW won't send the phone back to me and insist on me (or my representative) going in person to get it. Just part of their process for making life as difficult as possible for anyone who buys goods that turn out to be faulty.

I would really like to make CPW fulfill their legal obligation to repair or replace, but on balance I'd prefer a working phone, so yes, CPW are out of the loop once I get the phone back. Bustards. (The irony is that CPW have probably spent a lot more, in terms of phone calls plus staff time and effort, on wriggling out of their obligations than it would have cost them just to give me a replacement phone.)

======

General Question, though: How can one show that a product had an inherent fault? In this case, if I were CPW, for instance, I'd be inclined to say, "Did it work properly for the first 8 months? Yes? Then it must have been made properly, and you Mr Customer have subsequently done something to make it stop working properly." Given that you can't prove a negative, I'd have difficulty proving that I had not, in fact, done something to make the phone stop working. I'm really at a loss to figure out how I could prove the product was faulty when I bought it (or, that it was going to develop a fault after a while). I suppose I could find an electronics engineer to undertake a forensic investigation and write a report ... which would probably cost a lot more than a new phone, and then CPW could just say, "We disagree with your engineer's findings, our engineers say you broke it". It could drag on for ages.

ThumbRemote

xmfclick wrote: »

General Question, though: How can one show that a product had an inherent fault? In this case, if I were CPW, for instance, I'd be inclined to say, "Did it work properly for the first 8 months? Yes? Then it must have been made properly, and you Mr Customer have subsequently done something to make it stop working properly." Given that you can't prove a negative, I'd have difficulty proving that I had not, in fact, done something to make the phone stop working. I'm really at a loss to figure out how I could prove the product was faulty when I bought it (or, that it was going to develop a fault after a while). I suppose I could find an electronics engineer to undertake a forensic investigation and write a report ... which would probably cost a lot more than a new phone, and then CPW could just say, "We disagree with your engineer's findings, our engineers say you broke it". It could drag on for ages.

You are right, you'd need an engineers report. You can claim the cost of this back from the company if they accept the findings, or if they don't accept the findings so you take it to the small claims court and you win.