A tricky one...setting up a not-for-profit mountain retreat in Italy.

gregdedman

Hi everyone,
I have called upon the moneysaving masses to try and get my head around how on earth I can set up a not for profit mountain retreat in Italy.
Im from the UK and would operate in seasons, 5 months at a time, opening my doors (a 12 bedded rented apartment already sourced) to anyone who needs a space to relax and unwind in the mountains.
I am not interested in making a profit. Of course I need to meet my costs and upkeep plus raise enough for the following seasons operation.
Any further profits will be given away to a personal charity assisting street children of Peru.

My idea and ultimately my dream is to offer a bed, food and space to relax in stunning scenery for a 'contribution', making a much needed holiday affordable to all.

There are 4 of us, experienced in hospitality and outdoor hiking, skiing etc. Three of us having worked for a similar, for-profit UK company operating in Italy. By offering 'organised' activities, with each guest signing a legal disclaimer to join us, non qualified guides.
I felt it necessary to add that last detail in as it will mean ensuring I have certain insurances in place.

Im a complete novice at this, and all I have really are the funds and the dream to set this up. I humbly ask anyone who may have knowledge on how to get this off the ground to add their opinions and advice.

I want to do something for the greater good, enriching peoples lives in a small way (think 'FREE HUGS', couchsurfing, wwoofing etc and you'll get an idea). I have learnt the hard way over the years that money only leads to caution, worry and desperation and it never really hits the mark when it comes to happiness.
My inspiration in life always came from the outdoors. Fresh air, mountains, wildlife and like minded, happy people.
This is what I want to offer others.

That may all sound hippy to most of you but I would still love to hear your views

Knowing nothing of what I need to know, Its hard to ask specific questions....
Who do I register as and to who?
In the UK or Italy?
As a NFP or a business?
Which insurance do I need? Public liability?
Where do I pat taxes to?
......?

Kind regards in advance
Greg

buglawton

Italy is famous for its labyrinthian and corruption-inducing laws surrounding property and tax. Avoid. Consider Switzerland instead.

Savvy_Sue

gregdedman wrote: »

Hi everyone,
I have called upon the moneysaving masses to try and get my head around how on earth I can set up a not for profit mountain retreat in Italy.
Im from the UK and would operate in seasons, 5 months at a time, opening my doors (a 12 bedded rented apartment already sourced) to anyone who needs a space to relax and unwind in the mountains.
I am not interested in making a profit. Of course I need to meet my costs and upkeep plus raise enough for the following seasons operation.
Any further profits will be given away to a personal charity assisting street children of Peru.

I'm not sure what a personal charity is, but there is no legal structure of 'not for profit' in the UK. So you'd need either a limited company or partnership or similar, and you'd set into writing what you were going to do with the profits. You'd need legal advice to be sure of getting this right and covering a few 'what ifs'. What you'd need to do in Italy I have no idea ...

gregdedman wrote: »

There are 4 of us, experienced in hospitality and outdoor hiking, skiing etc. Three of us having worked for a similar, for-profit UK company operating in Italy. By offering 'organised' activities, with each guest signing a legal disclaimer to join us, non qualified guides.
I felt it necessary to add that last detail in as it will mean ensuring I have certain insurances in place.

You can add as much detail as you like, but are you aware of a current 'issue' in France where non-qualified ski guides are being forced off the slopes? Even though the services they're offering are fairly limited and (they say) don't require qualifications? If something similar happened in Italy, you'd have a problem, I feel - and I don't think the issue is limited to ski guides. Locals feel that 'foreigners' are taking their jobs / usurping their tourist environment, they'll get upset.

I don't have any specific answers for you. I'd say this was not something to rush into if you want it to be sustainable. If you don't already speak Italian fluently, I'd get it up to speed as a priority, especially what you'll need for business purposes ...

and I have no reason to disagree with buglatown either!

paddyrg

If you have the funds, perhaps start by spending done on specific legal advice, this sounds like a minefield and you may need to sue someone if they give bad advice later

I would be very sensitive to upsetting vested interests on the one hand, and the 'tragedy of the commons' on the other. A lot of big business is invested in tourist resorts, they don't want to be undercut, so may make life difficult. Ski passes may cost you more than someone buying in bulk, for instance. Local taxes may be applied selectively and aggressively. Italy is on its knees at the moment so you may be low on the police protection list of priorities?

Who is your customer? Still middle-class families who go skiing together during the season? Or pontins regulars branching out? Will the social aspect of this really mean anything when the tourists are still paying out for all the other costs (flights, clothes, hires, cars, passes, food, wine etc), or are you actually just saving then £100 on a £1500 holiday? Subsidizing middle class holidays is probably not what you were thinking of for a charitable nfp!

Alternatively, if you get the lower socioeconomic groups coming skiing, and they can afford the flights, will they expect the rest for free too? How do you set reasonable expectations? Or you do it free, loads come, but you find you're spending all your cash on increasingly demanding customers with new found ideas. Who knows!

It is great you want to do something social with your cash, it is also find if you want to go skiing on holiday or even live or work out there, I just can't see a natural connection myself at the moment. That cash could make so much more difference at home (perhaps a social enterprise with kids co who do amazing work at home, perhaps helping women in domestic violence refuges to start reintrgrating of learn new skills too become independent again). Subsidized skiing holidays would be lower on my personal list of world problems to sort out - that said I could have fully misunderstood so please forgive me if I've misinterpreted!

gregdedman

I thank you for your advice Paddyrg but I feel you have missed the point somewhat.
My intention is to use local foods, suppliers, ski teachers etc etc wherever possible.
Im not interested in subsidizing middle class holidays at all, Im offering an option for people to pay less for a winter getaway...if they wish to ski, we are skiers, if they wish to snowshoe, Im a snowshoe guide, if they wish to learn local cuisine, we organise a tour if they want reiki we have reiki master who offer free treatments.
Our costs are minimal and when you compare us to for profit companies offering similar activities, you would see that there is a huge gulf of difference. I used to work for one, so know the figures.

Of course I would be living in the mountains, I wouldn't want to put my name to anything that was remotely operated but the initial capital is from my own pocket so its far from being a free ride.

Finally, my skills are outdoor guiding, ski guiding, snowshoe guiding and hiking. I see the power of the outdoors as medicine and want to show others an amazing place in the world....to be honest, I couldn't and wouldn't want to set up a domestic violence refuge as frankly, I don't have the passion or the skills to give it a crack.

I'm trying to play to my strengths.
I know for a fact there are numerous UK companies operating in Northern Italy and so know it is possible. I just need signposting.
Regards
Greg

paddyrg

Hiya, sorry I missed the point, in honesty I think I'm still missing it slightly. It sounds a bit like a local homestay with the bonus that you'll arrange activities which is great, I'm just not seeing what the social enterprise/charitable/nfp element is distinct. I imagine people still book flights to a ski resort district, so that will naturally tend to pre-select your guests to be people who'd consider a skiing/snowy break in Italy - you can see where I thought it may end up that you subsidize the middle class skiing set!

I completely get that being out in nature is very healing, so if that is your target guest, perhaps consider how you would target this to people who needed that and could afford flights but not accommodation so much. Is there a particular doctors/mental health surgery you could promote via?

I think it's laudable that you want to share your environment that you find so enriching with people less fortunate than yourself, I just think a charitable framework is probably unnecessary and just more obligations and paperwork without benefit.

Hope it all goes well

Mistral001

What the OP seems to be wanting to set up is an actitivities retreat. Not sure if that is not an oxymoran. Many people will be confused by what is being offered (if that is the right word). and as a result you will get some people turning up for the totally wrong reasons.

Also be a bit weary about the type of people that such a venture will attract. When I was a bit younger I went on an activities holidays because I wanted to do the activities, but once I got there I found that there were some people who did not want to do any activities. In fact some of the people were in fact very strange people indeed.

Acremead

Personally I'd be very wary of starting up any kind of business in Italy without a local to guide me. To echo Buglawton, their laws are complex and, because of that, corruption inducing. There's "the official way to do it" and "the way we actually do it". The two are far from identical, which is where the local's knowledge comes in. From what I've seen Italian culture is much more parochial, with family ties and 'who you know' being much more important than here in the UK.

Then again there's the current financial situation. Most Italians would love to get their cash out of the Eurozone so it's not the best time to be buying into it.

gregdedman

The charity aspect of the idea is what we do with the 'leftover' profits.
I'd charge a set price of say £150 per person per week, including locally sourced food, private 3 star accomodation, transport around the mountains, our local outdoor knowledge and organised days in the mountains.
When the target of meeting our initial investment and another seasons rent is met then there could be excess profits that we would give to a South American charity personal to a one of my staff.

I know its a tricky one, but in my head the idea is clearer lol

I get to share the outdoors.
We host our guests who come and choose from a list of activities we are trained in and which this area can offer and pay a set price.
Those funds build up (hopefully) and secure a second season.
The excess is given to charity.

I can't put it any simpler.
People are prepared to pay £150/£200 for all that we include. Its a whole lot cheaper than both doing it independently and what other companies offer.
That money goes directly towards providing others with the chance of visiting in the years to come plus the feel good factor of giving to the overseas charity...we hope this sits better than filling the pockets of the big tour operators.

As a side point, I do indeed have many friends who live in the town I wish to set up in. They are behind the idea 100% and I am well aware of the 'mountain' philosophy of the people here, I worked there for 2 years.
All food will be locally sourced, all ski lessons sourced to local ski guides, all external activities i.e. rock climbing, massage, rafting etc are locally provided.

So, do I register as a limited company in the UK but operating abroad?
Do I get public liability insurance?
What else do I legally need to operate?

Seeing the ruling in France regarding British ski guides, It may sadly mean that we and other companies who already offer this complimentary service will have to cease to do so.
Italy is VERY different to France so we shall see what the courts say about all that.

As for the cash crisis in Italy, why shouldn't I bring English £s to the area? There's even more reason to in my view.

Again, thanking you all for your input, Im learning all the way!

Mistral001

Just a couple more points. Both are a bit negative. I hope you do not mind me playing deivil's advocate.

The "disclaimer" might not be considered a reasonable one and thus not valid under English law or Italian law. Also the Italians tend to be a bit quick to prosecute under criminal law oranganisers of events when accidents happen and a disclaimer would certainly not protect you from the criminal law.

You might be bringing money into Italy with rent and food being bought with GB pound, but you might also annoy a few local guides and ski instructors. They will just see you as competitors taking their business. OK you might not be charging for you guiding and sking instruction services, but when guests are using your services they will not be using the local people's services and that might cause a few problems.

gregdedman

The disclaimer is currently used by companies out there in Italy and it is legally binding. Its a fine legal line for sure, but its legal.

As for the activities, In the mountains of Italy you can pay locals for ski lessons from ski schools or ski guides who will take you off-piste, freeskiing. All guests wanting to do these activities will be using local contacts I have who are qualified. For the space in between, pisted ski touring....well that'd be me. I would not be taking any business away from pisted ski guides because that's not commonly needed.
I will always be thoughtful enough to signpost my guests to local suppliers if they are better positioned to assist them.

Please remember there are many UK companies all over Europe doing this kind of thing, albeit with a money making slant. Can anyone help with advice for how I go about this from a non money making slant?