Is there a better way to deal with Trolls?

Blulu

Hi,

We have been having a serious discussion about Trolls and Trolling here, wondering if there might be any more effective ways to deal with this horrible issue, when it crops up - which it does far too often.

It seems to affect a number of forum members, who say they do not now post in certain boards or even at all, because of having been Trolled. Is there a better way of tackling this issue?

Some of the debate has been slightly less serious too, but I am sure you will appreciate the humour too.

It's in the Compers Chat Corner:


Random private message from a troll(123 ... Last Page)

Thank you for your time and help

Blu X

Edit: Thank you Firefly for sorting the link out XXX

waveyjane

Hi Blu,

I've been a member of many (perhaps hundreds) of online discussion forums since 1993, from Compuserve, to Usenet, mailing lists to BBSes, and then on the web. I've hosted my own (one got up past 10,000 active members), and helped out on others. I think, almost without exception, the issue you raise has come up regularly on all of them, at least after a time.

If you are thinking whether there is some form of technical or policy measure against trolling, I would pretty much forget it. There are some large and famous systems out there that have made serious attempts to control idiots who try to disrupt online communities. Their success has largely come at the cost of complexity (as in the case of Slashdot.org's system of "karma" which is, by the way, very effective) or some other side-effect, such as the complete anonymity of posts on 2ch.net, which is (or was) the biggest online discussion forum on the net.

My tuppence on this is that it's just life. An online forum is a public place. The best we can all do is ignore or maybe block people we think are trolling. Personally, I do the former and never the latter because I regard the latter as ultimately a hopeless and morally corrosive act. But that's just me.

Jane

Blulu

Thanks Jane, you might well be right. I think I'm not so much looking for 'the perfect solution' to the problem, as just wondering if there is a slightly better way than what we are currently doing here.

For me the issue is that I know that a number of members have been affected by Trolls here. So much so that it affects what they post, and sometimes they don't post at all.

I do agree that that there is no point setting up a complicated system that will perhaps disrupt the site as much as the Trolls, but does that mean that we can't do anything to make it even just a little easier to deal with these Trolls?

Like how about my suggestion on the other thread about a 'Troll button'? Perhaps one that can only be used by members with 4 stars or more, and requires at least three clicks by different members. In that way, at least when a Troll posts, they could be halted at that moment, stopping from posting and pm-ing until MSE have a chance to review. They could still use the site without posting, so if it's a mistake it would only affect them slightly and temporarily. I realise that MSE might hate the idea of giving member this power, but if it could be given only to very experienced members, with limited and temporary powers, it really might help. And if the same person keeps Trolling, they might get bored if their activities are cut off much quicker. At the moment, they have time to do a lot of harm here.

Sorry to go on. I feel passionately about this issue, because I so hate seeing forum users upset by these 'people'. Not everyone is able to laugh off that level of abuse.

Blu X

Cornucopia

What are Trolls by your definition?

One of the problems in trying to regulate this is "taking sides". Sometimes that will be like adults "taking sides" in a squabble between children (ie. neither side is more or less correct than the other); but sometimes these are important issues of law, morality, science or whatever, where there is a defined "fact" and one party is willfully ignoring it for reasons connected with their world-view and their motivation for posting.

One thing that MSE suffers from more than other forums is "helpfulness syndrome". This is both a very good and very nice thing, and ultimately a bad thing. The issue is that someone asks a question that ultimately has a factual answer. Before the poster who knows that factual answer gets to the thread a number of other posters have given incorrect or partial answers based on a fragmented (or wrong) understanding of the issues.

I appreciate that no one can be an expert on everything, but perhaps we need a "certainty code" for factual answers and advice, whereby opinions and loose or partial answers are differentiated from knowledgeable ones?

waveyjane

There is of course a "report" button on every post, but I don't know to what extent reported posts are being monitored.

Just to be clear, I assume the definition of a troll is somebody who:

Persistently disrupts conversations with things like name-calling, insults, references to Hitler and the Nazis, etc. That is, stuff that's not constructive to the debate.

They are NOT a troll if they comply with both of the following:

1. They disagree with you or other people.
2. They explain why they disagree.

Note that in complying with the above two points, the language they use and whether or not they are polite is, I am afraid, irrelevant. You can be a polite troll. You can also be rude and uncouth and be perfectly constructive in a debate.

As to things like collaborative filtering and other measures that use the wisdom of the crowds to raise the quality of the debate, there are many and various ways of going about this (as I mentioned in my last post). Whether MSE has the technical ability or will to implement them, or whether the people here have the ability to navigate them, is another matter. For example, I know plenty of sites that have implemented collaborative filters and then descended into arguments about posts being "censored" because the rules are too hard to grasp (and are of necessity often opaque).

So, my tuppence: forget it. Ignore the whole issue of whether or not people are trolling. If you think others aren't posting because of trolling, then I appreciate your concern for them, but they are not you or me.

waveyjane

Incidentally, some people are complaining about being trolled in PMs in that thread you mention. I don't wish to appear harsh, but complaints of PM (and email) trolling are in my opinion a separate issue because it only affects the recipient of the PM, not the quality of the public discussion. If somebody is motivated to attack somebody privately, there is nothing the community can do about that, so appeals to the community to act are both useless, and quite possibly, a method of trolling the debate.

Blulu

Cor Jane, you ain't half a sensible lass. Sigh! I concede the point. I can picture what you have described.

MSE do ask us to deal with anything like this via the report button. It's just that it takes so long. But you may be right in that ignoring them may be the best way to handle them.

Cornucopia, my definition of a Troll is someone who hides behind anonymity to attack. I don't like it when anyone is attacked or abused here, but those who do that are not necessarily Trolls. To be honest, I think it's quite easy to spot a Troll, as opposed to someone you just disagree with.

Re your other point about the 'helpfulness' problem. I think that is a separate issue. I'm also not sure I agree. I know what you mean, but the Internet - and the rest of the world for that matter - is full of people who think they know something, but are mistaken. The onus has to be on researching fully whatever advice one is offered here. Apart from anything, it surely has to be eminently more forgivable where people are at least trying to be helpful.

Thanks for your comments guys X