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"from a BT landline"

this phrase is stopping my dad making a move away from BT to Sky or VM for land line and phone services.

He makes a lot of 0845/0870 calls and their pricing is always advertised as "x pence per min from a BT landline". does this mean that pricing will be more expensive (or cheaper?!) from a Sky landline? Or does "from a BT landline" just mean "from a BT Wholesale landline"?

Seems like a silly question, but I can't work my head around it!

Thanks :)

Comments

  • Stompa
    Stompa Posts: 8,358 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    If he's making a lot of 0845/0870 calls, wouldn't an Anytime package be cheaper?
    Stompa
  • macman
    macman Posts: 53,128 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 15 March 2013 pm31 4:32PM
    Exactly. £5.15 pm for as many 0845/0870 calls as he wants on BT, 24/7. 0870 only is inclusive on Sky Talk.
    No free lunch, and no free laptop ;)
  • nids wrote: »
    "x pence per min from a BT landline".

    This is quoted as a standard reference - try phoning an 0870/0845 from your mobile and see what that costs :eek:
  • DaveAA
    DaveAA Posts: 87 Forumite
    edited 22 April 2013 pm30 4:00PM
    "Calls cost 5p/min from a BT landline; other providers may charge more."
    UK businesses quote BT prices for 084, 087 and 09 numbers because:
    1. they are regulated,
    2. they are the lowest.
    This is very unhelpful to the consumer. Most people are not with BT or are using a mobile.

    The truth (using 0844 477 as an example) is "Calls cost 5p to 15p/min from a landline and 25p to 45p/min from a mobile. This includes a revenue share payment of 5p/min".

    The confusion comes as the revenue share varies from 1p/min to 5p/min for 0843/0844 numbers and from 5p/min to 10p/min for 0871/0872 numbers. This means the call price varies depending on the number called when called from a landline. Mobile operators charge the same highly inflated price for all 08 numbers with the same prefix. For 09 numbers the revenue share is 10p/min up to several pounds per minute and these numbers are also covered by additional "PRS" regulation.

    There are two parts to the call price when you call an 084, 087 or 09 number.

    The first is the "revenue share premium". This is set by the called party when they first choose their telephone number. Each block of 10 000 numbers has a tariff assigned to it, e.g. "084 4477" is "g6" (i.e. 5p/min) and "084 4387" is "g11" (i.e. 4p/min) and so on.

    In Ofcom's literature, this figure is currently described as "BT's retail call price". Elsewhere you will find details of the "NTS Condition" imposed on BT to charge no more than this figure for those calls. BT are not allowed to take a cut from these calls.

    This figure is identical to the "revenue share" that is passed on to the called party. All callers from all networks pay the exact same revenue share fee within their call price. Call prices from other networks and mobile operators are unregulated so they are allowed to add their own fees on top. Sky currently choose not to. Virgin add about 9p/min for 0844 numbers (and probably a similar amount for 0843, 0871, 0872). Mobile operators add 20p to 40p/min to the call price for 084 and 087 numbers.

    The "NTS condition" imposed on BT will end soon. BT will then be allowed to add to the call price, and other landline operators will no doubt copy BT's lead.

    Ofcom propose that in future the revenue share fee, which is set by the called party, be known as the "service charge" and the fee that the callers phone company adds on to the call price be known as the "access charge". This is the essence of the "unbundled tariffs" system that Ofcom has recently proposed.

    In future, the company you are calling will have to advertise their "service charge" and your phone company will have to advise how much the "access charge" is for calling 084, 087 and 09 numbers on your tariff/price plan.

    Bank 1 uses an 0844 number with a "service charge" of 5p/min.

    Bank 2 uses an 0844 number with a "service charge" of 2p/min.

    Your landline provider adds an "access charge" of 9p/min for 084, 087 and 09 calls.

    Your mobile network adds an "access charge" of 30p/min for 084, 087 and 09 calls.

    Bank 3 offers an 03 number which is charged at geographic rate and included in landline "inclusive minutes" and within mobile "inclusive minutes".

    It is now easy to see that your calls are going to cost 14p/min and 35p/min to Bank 1, 11p/min and 32p/min to Bank 2, and "zero" to call Bank 3.

    It will be an offence to fail to declare the "service charge" when an 084, 087 or 09 number is advertised.

    The "access charge" will vary from phone provider to phone provider and from tariff to tariff, but on any particular tariff the "access charge" will be exactly the same for all 084, 087 and 09 numbers.

    The above description applies to the current situation for 0843, 0844, 0871, 0872 and 09 numbers and to the future situation for 0843, 0844, 0845, 0870, 0871, 0872 and 09 numbers.

    0845 and 0870 are "special cases". They used to be tied to "local" and "national" rates, but this ended in 2005. There have been several changes since. These will return to revenue sharing and become more expensive. They will also no longer be included in landline call bundles.

    Many companies using 0845 and 0870 numbers should be moving to 0345 and 0370 numbers. When the Consumer Rights Directive is enacted later in 2013 all customer service lines will need to move from 084, 087 and 09 numbers to 03 numbers (or to 01, 02 or 080 numbers) to ensure that callers "pay no more than the basic rate".

    The 037 range is reserved for users of the matching 087 number.
    The 034 range is reserved for users of the matching 084 number.
    This has been in place since 2007. The number change has so far been voluntary. Once CRD becomes law it will be mandatory.

    Businesses that choose to remain with 084, 087 and 09 numbers will have to display the "service charge" that callers will pay.
    Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers will soon need to display details of the inbuilt Service Charge under Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs" plans.

    Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers for customer service, complaints, renewals, etc, will need to swap to an 01, 02, 03 or 080 number before the Consumer Rights Directive comes into effect June 2014.
  • DonnyDave
    DonnyDave Posts: 1,579 Forumite
    nids wrote: »
    this phrase is stopping my dad making a move away from BT to Sky or VM for land line and phone services.

    He makes a lot of 0845/0870 calls and their pricing is always advertised as "x pence per min from a BT landline". does this mean that pricing will be more expensive (or cheaper?!) from a Sky landline? Or does "from a BT landline" just mean "from a BT Wholesale landline"?

    Seems like a silly question, but I can't work my head around it!

    Thanks :)
    As DaveAA has said, there are changes coming that will see pricing information given relative to all providers, as each number user will notify of its Service Charge and each call provider will notify its Access Charge.

    The point is that at present the "from a BT landline" pricing information dates back to when BT was by-and-far the most widely used telephone provider.

    It is BT Retail that it is talking about and not BT Wholesale. The former is the "BT" that residential subscribers get their phone service from, if their provider is BT.

    Because of regulation applied to BT when it was the most widely-used provider, its 084x and 0871, 0872, 0873 and 09 rates are the lowest. Some match BT's rates, but no provider is lower.

    Virgin Media is quite a bit more expensive than BT for 084 and 087 numbers.

    As one example - stick with me on this one! - BT's g6 0844 rate is the same from Sky Talk.

    Different 0844 numbers are charged at different rates, according to the next three digits. The highest band is g6 and one such prefix that this applies to is 0844 477, for example.

    Pricing information from the three providers you mention is available at:

    BT: https://www.bt.com/callingplans then select "Call tariffs & charges" and near the bottom are two PDFs which give the pricing of the bands.
    Sky Talk: https://www.sky.com/skytalk
    Virgin Media: https://www.virginmedia.com/callcosts

    I'll understand if your response is to say that it isn't straightforward!
  • Heinz
    Heinz Posts: 11,191 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture Combo Breaker Car Insurance Carver!
    It's perfectly clear to me. If the number starts 084, 087 or 09, don't dial it.

    Personally, I add 118 to those prohibitions.
    Time has moved on (much quicker than it used to - or so it seems at my age) and my previous advice on residential telephony has been or is now gradually being overtaken by changes in the retail market. Hence, I have now deleted links to my previous 'pearls of wisdom'. I sincerely hope they helped save some of you money.
  • DaveAA
    DaveAA Posts: 87 Forumite
    edited 22 April 2013 pm30 4:02PM
    If you're calling from a mobile phone, that advice is spot on.

    If you're calling from a landline, check whether you currently have "inclusive" calls to 0845 and/or 0870 before making a judgement. A neighbour spent several days looking for a "cheaper" alternative to an 0845 number until I pointed out that 0845 calls are currently free from his landline. :rotfl:

    Always try dialling the "03" version of every advertised 084 and 087 number to see if it has already been activated.
    Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers will soon need to display details of the inbuilt Service Charge under Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs" plans.

    Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers for customer service, complaints, renewals, etc, will need to swap to an 01, 02, 03 or 080 number before the Consumer Rights Directive comes into effect June 2014.
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