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  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,059 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Rampant Recycler
    edited 7 March 2013 at 11:42AM
    spgsc531 wrote: »
    1. Hmm, let's see..

    2. 25 million homes in the UK, Approx. 7 out of 10 are owner occupied.

    So that's 17.5 million homes.

    3. Why not live in a flat? Not understood

    4. FiT payments are proportional to generation so what is your point here?? - What are you talking about? The point is that the higher the electrical consumption, the higher the contribution of the customer to the FIT subsidy. So the OAP in a all-electric flat contributes more.

    5. Which Councils are you talking about? Many councils have/are fitting solar PV to stock, so many 'pensioners' will be benefiting - especially with all-electric heating as so many are - from annual electricity savings of £80-£100? Solar PV FiT contribution was £2(?) per year in 2011?

    'Many Councils'? - Yet another misleading statement, indeed another myth:

    Another extract from George Monbiot's contributions:
    Those who angrily denounced my analysis claimed that it could in fact be a progressive scheme, as communities of poorer people could be helped to cash in. They're still claiming it, even though the facts deserted them long ago. Today,
    Andrew Pendleton of Friends of the Earth insists in the
    Guardian
    that there are "countless" examples of
    community feed-in tariff schemes in the UK.

    They're not countless; they've been counted by the energy regulator, Ofgem, in its annual report. There are
    403 such schemes, as opposed to 29,265 domestic installations. The community projects have, on average, been larger than the domestic ones, but they still account for only 5% of the total capacity, while private home owners' schemes account for 82%.

    (Thanks to Mike Kirwin for pointing me to the Ofgem
    report).

    The feed-in tariff is just what Andrew Pendleton says it isn't:
    "a middle-class subsidy". No amount of cherry-picking by Friends of the Earth, which throws around figures without providing comparisons, will change that.

    This group, which is usually a force for good, needs to look long
    and hard at the social impact of the policies it supports.

    P.S.
    That is my last reply to your nonsense, until you re-appear with another user name.
  • The_Green_Man_2
    The_Green_Man_2 Posts: 217 Forumite
    edited 7 March 2013 at 11:50AM
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    So, hows about we take a breather and start again. What savings are you thinking of for your property? Are you insulated to the max, have you any questions? Eric can advise on RWH, Zeup on solar thermal, most of us on PV, and also suggest threads and discussions on other items/issues.

    Good idea. I initially started this thread to do just that, but my mention of FiTs (and my objection to them) has derailed the discussion somewhat. In my defence all I have done is defend my objection and respond to some of the questions. I didn't expect this sort of response, but felt I gamely matched fire with fire. :)

    We have completed installing a warm-roof where we had to remove the original roofing felt as it was non-breathable plastic. We fitted a multi foil blanket combined with breathable roofing felt on top of the rafters with kingspan between and below to raise the insulation levels to above current building regs. This cost a fortune and would have been much cheaper had we not had to remove the plastic roofing felt, as we could have just insulated from the inside.

    We are now installing internal wall insulation for our solid walls. Again, this is an expensive route because we have to virtually destroy the room to get the insulation in (we can't use EWI). We are doing a room at a time and also install 100mm acoustic insulation in the ceiling/floor voids to meet soundproofing building regs (and to also provide additional thermal insulation) and lag any copper pipes as well.

    Once this is complete we will be installing triple glazing and insulation into the ground floor slab. It's an expensive business, especially because it's a retrofit instead of a newbuild with lots of remedial work. Plus the materials are subject to VAT, but will pay dividends once it's complete.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 15,371 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    (there's nothing like a good deep breath sometimes)

    Hiya Green Man and welcome to MSE. Energy generation and energy efficiency and energy saving are all very passionate subjects on here, so trying to deal with all of them in one go is a bit of a challenge! :D

    I don't envy you doing the IWI, messy business room by room, but massive benefits. I was lucky having a large enough cavity for CWI but at approx 50mm it is at the bottom end. Currently installing IWI to my side bay walls. They are only 600mm high, but single brick.

    Also the bay was built by simply extending the floor joists straight out the side of the house, so the downstairs ceiling was 'insulated' via floorboards inside, and 15mm T&G outside. That's a 1930's semi for you. Still, it gave me a chance to wip out my wrecking bars and start pulling floorboards. Insulation was free, last of my 'Gypsy builder' reserves - I used to cycle a lot between Cardiff and Newport along a coast road. Most days I'd discover new piles of fly tipped building materials, including 2 full packs (6 rolls) of 200mm rockwool. Straight back with the car. Also got two 5m lengths of fascia board still with the protective wrappers (now my bathroom window frame), loads of 3x2 lumber. Even sorted and stacked approx 200 block paving bricks once. Took an hour, but they were gone when I got back :mad:

    When you say ground floor slab, do you mean there is a cavity (I have a 500mm drop under my downstairs living rooms), or are you planning on excavating the existing floor?

    When we finally re-did the kitchen, we went all out, stripping all 6 sides. Dug out 300mm of clinker and soft soil before infill which included 100mm of Kingspan. Really worth it, I walk around in socks and the old quarry tiles were too cold to tolerate, but the new ceramic tiles are cool, but ok. Would like to do the same to the hallway, but it has the original patterned stone floor, so Wifey and I have settled on a winter coat, consisting of a tight fitting lino that goes down when the heating is switched on Sept/Oct, then gets put back in the loft late Mch/April. The floor helps keep the house cool during the summer.

    Are you comfortable with all the works you're doing? I can point you to some other sites / threads that go into great detail on these jobs if you like?

    Have fun.

    Mart.
    Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Thanks Mart. We'll be looking to break up the current concrete base and excavate down with a view to fitting a limecrete floor. The house is quite old with solid stone walls and shouldn't really have cement in it. According to the literature I have read, the impermeable cement base sends moisture across and into the solid walls. The limecrete will allow the floor to breath but will still give plenty of insulation. We'll probably install UFH and then re-lay the existing mill flags.

    All in the far future because we're working from the roof down with the retrofit. The 'woolly hat' on the roof is complete and now we're once storey down and fitting internal insulation in the bedrooms. It'll be a few years before we get to the ground floor (we are on three levels - four if you count the lofts).
  • spgsc531
    spgsc531 Posts: 250 Forumite
    edited 7 March 2013 at 12:46PM
    Cardew wrote: »
    P.S.
    That is my last reply to your nonsense

    Seeing as you brought it up, I note you haven't answered where you got this number from?
    Cardew wrote: »
    You should also appreciate that little sub-4kWp installations on the roofs of houses dotted around UK collecting a FIT of 44p/kWh is a far more efficient way of generating solar electricity than these large solar farms.
    spgsc531 wrote: »
    3. Why not live in a flat? Not understood

    I don't think it's particularly hard to understand. You stated to be eligible for FiT:
    Cardew wrote: »
    B. Not live in a flat.(3)

    I asked Why?
    spgsc531 wrote: »
    4. FiT payments are proportional to generation so what is your point here?? What are you talking about?

    You stated:
    Cardew wrote: »
    C. Have a suitable roof.- size, orientation, structure, not shaded etc.(4)

    I responded:
    spgsc531 wrote: »
    4. FiT payments are proportional to generation so what is your point here??

    The point is that the higher the electrical consumption, the higher the contribution of the customer to the FIT subsidy. So the OAP in a all-electric flat contributes more.

    I have no idea why you answered with this, I think it's you that doesn't know what your talking about.
    Cardew wrote: »
    'Many Councils'? - Yet another misleading statement, indeed another myth

    A quick google found this as the first link:

    http://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/council-solar-panels

    "Solar panel systems are currently being fitted on many council houses across the country"
  • tunnel
    tunnel Posts: 2,601 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Sorry, but it's a bit of a poor excuse to give someone thousands of pounds of taxpayers money in the hope that they will become energy efficient once they have installed PIR.

    We did all of the above without recourse to public funds. We're now installing IWI insulation which is costing a kings ransom but which will help reduce our energy consumption.

    I do understand where your coming from and in principle have got to agree with you,but by offering the incentive the goverment have opened many peoples eyes to the wider picture of being energy efficient(being green).

    Fair play to you with your green credentials,but remember,many people can't afford to do what your doing. For most its probably making the most of free cavity wall and loft insulation schemes that are available. I don't know what more the goverment can do to make people aware of being green cos as you've found out to your kings ransom cost,being green "usually" comes with a heavy price tag

    I'm certainly not going to look my gift horse in the mouth for trying to be "a little greener",neither i doubt would you if there was some sort of grant available to you for the work your doing.
    2 kWp SEbE , 2kWp SSW & 2.5kWp NWbW.....in sunny North Derbyshire17.7kWh Givenergy battery added(for the power hungry kids)
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 15,371 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    spgsc531 wrote: »
    Seeing as you brought it up, I note you haven't answered where you got this number from?

    A quick google found this as the first link:

    http://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/council-solar-panels

    "Solar panel systems are currently being fitted on many council houses across the country"

    That's interesting.

    I think the housing numbers come from a GM article written a year ago, but the '29k installs' suggests a date a year earlier again. So an old article, with even older numbers.

    Also note the number play, it says 5% of installs are community installs. If this is supposed to sound small (which it is I suppose) it should be put in context with council/social housing accounting for approx 17% of UK housing. So it's not 1/20 but 1/4. Not great, but not so bad.

    Also, at that time councils hadn't really started to act. They then went on to copy the RaR model. So hopefully we'll see more and more progress on this, as per the link you posted, and installs like this:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/mar/05/wrexham-europe-solar-energy?intcmp=122

    Mart.
    Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,059 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Rampant Recycler
    edited 7 March 2013 at 4:11PM
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    That's interesting.

    I think the housing numbers come from a GM article written a year ago, but the '29k installs' suggests a date a year earlier again. So an old article, with even older numbers.

    Also note the number play, it says 5% of installs are community installs. If this is supposed to sound small (which it is I suppose) it should be put in context with council/social housing accounting for approx 17% of UK housing. So it's not 1/20 but 1/4. Not great, but not so bad.

    Also, at that time councils hadn't really started to act. They then went on to copy the RaR model. So hopefully we'll see more and more progress on this, as per the link you posted, and installs like this:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/mar/05/wrexham-europe-solar-energy?intcmp=122

    Mart.


    These council installations do nothing to counter the fundamental objections to the FIT scheme, namely that all electricity consumers pay for a subsidy to fund the FIT pot.

    That the FIT money goes to a Council, instead of Rent-a-Roof companies or home owners is of little consolation to the OAP in a flat(rented or owned) in another council area.

    Just so we get the numbers properly 'put into context', I believe solar PV is fitted to between 1% and 2% of UK properties. So Council schemes benefit 5% of that 1% to 2% of properties – a max of 0.1%!
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 15,371 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Cardew wrote: »
    Just so we get the numbers properly 'put into context', I believe solar PV is fitted to between 1% and 2% of UK properties. So Council schemes benefit 5% of that 1% to 2% of properties – a max of 0.01%!

    Obviously it's pretty pointless to analyse numbers that are so, so, so out of date today. But .....

    given my dislike for inaccurate numbers, and poor calculations that always seem to 'accidentally' criticise I might as well ask .......

    are you entirely sure that 5% of 1% or 2% is 0.01%? ;)

    Regardless of the above, if we're assuming that community projects means council / social housing, then an easier calculation using those old numbers would be to take 1% or 2% and divide by 17.5 (approx % of housing that is council/social housing), then multiply by 5% (assuming the ratio hasn't changed) giving a figure of between 0.3% and 0.6% of such housing. Not bad for 3 years, and you've got to start somewhere!

    Mart.
    Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • spgsc531
    spgsc531 Posts: 250 Forumite
    Cardew wrote: »
    Just so we get the numbers properly 'put into context', I believe solar PV is fitted to between 1% and 2% of UK properties. So Council schemes benefit 5% of that 1% to 2% of properties – a max of 0.01%!
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    given my dislike for inaccurate numbers, and poor calculations that always seem to 'accidentally' criticise I might as well ask .......

    are you entirely sure that 5% of 1% or 2% is 0.01%? ;)

    Cardew wrote: »
    You should realize that you mustn't use logic in this part of MSE.

    You should also appreciate that little sub-4kWp installations on the roofs of houses dotted around UK collecting a FIT of 44p/kWh is a far more efficient way of generating solar electricity than these large solar farms. It doesn't matter that they don't even need to send any electricity to the Grid.

    This is the problem with cardew. He makes obvious errors with simple numbers, yet when you point out his errors/mistakes he ignores/changes the subject/distracts by quoting Monbiot or just stops posting until a few days later.

    He clearly takes his own advice.
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