Section 21 Help

daisydoomoo

Hi, needing some help re Section 21 Notices/Evictions, firstly a bit of background.

We are newbie landlords and have just taken over 12 flats (plus ours which is on site), it is a takeover of a family run business that was run very badly, so we are happy to admit we are slightly in over our heads.
We are currently doing everything we can to make the place as efficient as possible for all involved but we are up against it with a select few tenants.

Of the 12 flats, 3 are occupied by different members of the same family, and it is this family that is causing us a massive problem. On our first day of moving in (before our stuff was even unpacked) we were given vile abuse by 2 members, and this unfortunately is a common occurrence now. They will find any excuse to shout at us (me a lot more, the girl of the relationship), they get very aggressive and in your face, and are constantly acting in a very childish way trying to get us to bite.

A recent example; the couple below us (part of that family) work on night shifts, and at 11pm before leaving were lovely enough to turn their music and subwoofer on, leaving it on all night until 7am when they returned. They know this is directly below our bedroom and keeps us awake, they are trying to antagonise as they enjoy a fight.
Thus far every time they swear, shout, abuse etc we are just smiling politely and walking away as we don't want to give them ammunition, the one time we asked them to turn their music down when I was working from home and it was shaking our floors we were screamed at.

The Actual Thing I Need Help With
We want to issue a Section 21 to them but are worried about the consequences of that. They aren't currently in rent arrears but they are late most months - they have the money there but hold out until we have to remind them, and then they accuse us of harassment. On the same token if we don't remind them then they tell us its our job to tell them we need the rent (err we're not a homeless shelter!)
Is a Section 21 the only way to go? From all the research I've done it seems the only way to get out a tenant when they aren't in arrears, landlords don't seem to have much right in the way of abusive tenants? Research also suggests that the majority of Section 21s get thrown out on technicalities, and going on the assumption that the minute we serve it to them they will stop paying their rent it seems we can either put up with the daily torment or cost ourselves thousands trying to remove them.
Do we have any other option?
Ideally we'd like all of the family gone but we hope if we evict the main perpetrators it might scare the other members into behaving like human beings.

I do apologise for the long post but conveying how awful it is on a day to day basis is difficult in writing, and believe me I could fill an encyclopaedia with the trouble they cause!

Thanks in advance

BitterAndTwisted

A Section 21 Notice and Section 8 for persistent late-payment of the rent. That ground of a Section 8 is not mandatory but at least it will tell your tenants that you mean business.

If they stop paying the rent you can chase them through the courts for it if they don't pay up before they leave IF they have jobs and your know either where they've gone or where they work.

The one way to not have a S21 fail on a technicality is to make sure you serve it correctly! Any half-intelligent person with the right information and the right forms in their hands could do it.

Think about the loss of rent if your other non-troublesome and non-anti-social tenants start leaving in droves. These people could be pushing your rents down given how obnoxious they sound. Get shot of the lot them!

G_M

First, you are mad to have taken on 12 tenancies a) with such little experience and b) having clearly not checked into these tenancies first.

However:

What tenancies are these?

* ASTs? Fixed Term or Periodic? Dates? S21 ever previously served?
* Deposits paid by tenants? When/how much? Protected? Where?
* All statutory requirements met? Gas certificates etc?
* Assured tenancies? Started when?
* Protected tenancies?
* if your flat is 'on-site' what does this mean? Resident LL as per statute? HMOs? Seperate tenancies?
* Arrears? How much?
* Occupants? Are they all listed on tenancy agreements?

Any legal slip (eg no valid gas certificates/registered depsoit) and they'll take you to the cleaners.

Clearly you will have to bite several bullets here. Yes, when you serve notice, you'll be faced with arrears (and maybe damage when they leave) but you'll have to accept this as the price to pay for not doing research before buying, and for obtaining the properties back under your control.

Werdnal

Also, where are you (not specific town/city), but England/Wales and Scotland have different letting laws and regulations.

BigAunty

If you want all of the family gone, then serve papers on all of them! You may hope that it bucks up their behaviour but it could be counter productive as they may aim to punish you for evicting their family members. Also, you have to cope with the ex-tenants returning to visit their family so the abuse, in some other forms, may continue. You've said that you want to run it on a more business like fashion so you need to deal with this risk and the only way to do this in full is not to have any of them as tenants.

If you are worried about repercussions of a stronger type, then fit some hidden CCTV cameras (you can buy them hidden in smoke detector and PIRs, for example).

If you don't have the appetite to deal with this eviction yourself, look at a service like Landlord Action - they offer a staged payment system at each stage of the eviction and have evicted more than 20,000 tenants.

daisydoomoo

As I said but haven't explained well enough this is a very badly run family run business that we have taken over (from my partners mum), so all the experience we have is learned from her, and have been learning from her the time she had it - only upon actually doing it for ourselves can we now see quite how badly everything has been done, rendering the majority of what we have learnt as void.
We have been in since November and have already addressed a number of issues, including structural problems and the first rent increase in 3 YEARS, but yes we probably are entirely mad.
Is also worth noting that although they were never model tenants before, they always paid their rent on time and were not abusive how they are to us, they've openly admitted it is us they have a problem with , possibly that's due to being a couple in our 20s.

1. Fixed term tenancies that are about to roll over and become a periodic tenancy (01/04/2013)
2. Unprotected deposits (Aware we have to sort this before issuing section 21)
3. All requirements up to date, last had the officers round in January to do all checks.
4. AST started 01/04/2009
5. Unsure off the top of my head whether protected, think not but will check paperwork when home.
6. Resident LL
7. No arrears at the moment but consistent late payment
8. All occupants named on tenancy agreements.

Thank you for the quick responses

Edit: We are in England

BitterAndTwisted

If they are separate flats then you're not "resident landlords" you just occupy a property on-site.

JOIN A LANDLORDS ASSOCIATION! And use their resources. I think you're going to need them. The non-protection of the deposits is going to cost you (or your partner's Mum) very dear indeed. Do you know what the potential penalties are? I expect your problem tenants are well-acquainted with them. Or they will be quite soon.

G_M

daisydoomoo wrote: »

1. Fixed term tenancies that are about to roll over and become a periodic tenancy (01/04/2013)
Serve S21 asap with a full 2 calender months notice (but see below)
2. Unprotected deposits (Aware we have to sort this before issuing section 21) the only way to 'sort this' is to return the deposits in full before serving the S21
3. All requirements up to date, last had the officers round in January to do all checks. what 'officers'? What 'checks'?
4. AST started 01/04/2009 then assuming it was a 4 year AST it will end on 31/3/13 - or has it been renewed since it started? If so, when? for how long?
If it was a 4 year AST, was it Executed as a Deed?
5. Unsure off the top of my head whether protected, think not but will check paperwork when home. Well, fingers crossed, therwise you're ****ed!
6. Resident LL Are you sure? Do you understand the legal definition?
7. No arrears at the moment but consistent late payment irrelevant then
8. All occupants named on tenancy agreements. well, that's 1 out of 8!

Thank you for the quick responses

Edit: We are in England

You need to check all your facts!

daisydoomoo

2. The advice I have been given regarding the deposits was that deposits can either be returned before issue of S21 or protected retroactively - misinformation it would seem but regardless we would do whatever it takes.
3. We have just recently had work done and the council have sent gas/electrical officers round on completion, we have up to date certificates and so do the council.
4. Apologies, they moved in that year but are on a 12 month AST which has been renewed every year since, not executed as a deed and also the tenancy agreement is not a standard one and has been pulled off net then edited (by partners mum) would not be surprised if it in itself wasn't right.
6. Again its off the top of my head so I could well be wrong, but I'm sure that's what I've seen on previous paperwork, we have a shared laundry room as well as an option in tenancy agreement to have washing etc done for the tenants.

Also sorry again for not having all facts here - I have to take the rare spare moment and currently that only happens in work life

Bitter&Twisted - Probably the most obvious piece of advice yet something we haven't done yet, without that nudge that thought hadn't even crossed my mind to be honest, slight tunnel vision when there's constant goings on! Thank you.

theartfullodger

In fairness I started as a landlord with about the same level of rank ignorance as you - but I only had one property... It cost me, btw, years of aggro, lots of non-paid rent and damage - but I'm slowly recovering my costs... serves me right btw for being so stupid ...

get educated!!! e.g. (for EVERYONE involved...)
http://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/courses/course1.shtml

Lettings for Landlords

Objectives

The aim of this course is to explain to Landlords their obligations in relation to their tenants and any agents they use, and vice-versa.
Course Content
Lettings is a minefield and legal understanding of the main issues is important. This course deals with the main areas that affect Landlords. The main topics covered are –

1. Tenancy types – important if you are buying a property with a tenant in place.
2. The condition of your property. If it is not up to scratch you can be sued and /or prosecuted.
3. Inventories. This is the evidence you rely on if you need to deduct from the tenants deposit. Fail to carry out an adequate Inventory and you will lose your case.
4. Periodic and Final check out Inspections. Practical advice about what you can and should do.
5. Getting and vetting tenants.
6. Possession proceedings, Notices and completing court forms.
7. The Law on harassment and Unlawful Eviction. This is a minefield for Landlords. The law is weighted against you. Do not let the tenant lure you into an expensive trap.

Hope you have a lot of time, money, patience & cunning: you'll need it...Me, I'd live ANYWHERE ELSE until I got the bad 'uns out...

I think this thread may run-and-run and be most illuminating. Do not forget your tenants and their legal advisers may well be reading your kind remarks about them to bring up later with the judge...

Cheers!!

daisydoomoo

The Law on harassment and Unlawful Eviction. This is a minefield for Landlords. The law is weighted against you. Do not let the tenant lure you into an expensive trap.
This is exactly the reason for getting advice, everywhere we turn this is being proved more and more to us, which is why more than anything we are holding our tongues and doing things by the book (we just need help getting there!)

I haven't shared any exclusive information about our letting so I would hope that wouldn't be an issue, but I am trying to stick to statements as opposed to opinions!

I am worried what point it will have to escalate to before it becomes easily resolved as the man below is more than double my size and on more than one occasion has been swearing and screaming an inch away from my face when I have had no one around to mediate - I'm not timid but I am a very small girl.