British gas direct debit mess up

Wywth

sniggings wrote: »

Anyone have BG take to much on a D/D? they should only take £40 a month but have taken £87 this month, all payments are up to date so can't thnk why they have done this, it's caused a right mess, meant another D/D got returned, so I now have bank charges and more than likely charges from the unpaid D/D that got returned :mad:

Will BG paid these charges as it's a result of their mix up?

For the benefit of anyone that may be unfortunate to find themselves in this situation, allow me to explain how the Rules of the Direct Debit Scheme apply and how you would be protected under the Direct Debit Scheme

It is a requirement of the Direct Debit Scheme that all Originators (e.g. BG in this example) provide advance notice to the Payer detailing the amount, date(s) and frequency of any collection. This advance notice should be at least 10 working days unless otherwise agreed.

Where suitable advance notice is not provided, the Payer may make a claim direct with their bank under the terms of the Direct Debit Guarantee. The bank are obligated to immediately refund such amount originally debited.
The Payer may also claim via their bank for any consequential loss (e.g. bank changes). It is for the Payer to fully justify such consequential loss claim. The bank will be responsible for reimbursing the Payer, but they may opt not to refund this until they receive the same from the Originator which in any event should be not later than 14 working days.

It would be against the Rules of the Direct Debit Scheme for the Originator to settle any such claim directly to the Payer.
Originators are advised to refer Payers back to the Paying Bank in the event the Payer contacts the Originator directly for recompense.

If a Payer receives a refund from their bank they are not entitled to, the Payer must pay it back to the Originator when it asks for it.



In the case of the OP, according to later posts in this thread, it appears that proper advance notice was actually provided and so any claim under the terms of the Direct Debit Guarantee would have eventually been found unfounded (on that specific basis), notwithstanding any reimbursement provided by the bank, as the bank are obligated to accept in good faith any and all claims made by the Payer.

sniggings

just to update the thread, I rang BG today and got the payment lowered to £40 again, but they wouldn't refund the bank charges as they say that the info was online for me to find, my argument was if i was still on paper billing I would have received notice by letter of a doubling of my direct debit payment, I also said I received an email each month asking for a meter reading, I said why can't they at least email me or have a pop up on screen with the info as i'm hardly going to go looking to see if they have changed my D/D amount, when it was all agreed, not to mention the info online is on the 3rd screen, why would I go looking for that :mad: but he wasn't having it.

Anyway, the return D/D charge was less than I thought, only £8(Barclays) and the company whos payment got returned unpaid (EE) didn't make a charge so a lot better than I thought it was going to cost me, so just be aware for those that have accounts online to be on top of everything.

DUTR

[QUOTE=sniggings;59760749

Anyway, the return D/D charge was less than I thought, only £8 and the company whos payment got returned unpaid (EE) didn't make a charge so a lot better than I thought it was going to cost me, so just be aware for those that have accounts online to be on top of everything.[/QUOTE]

That should go without saying, it always puzzles me, why folk have online management for their accounts and don't use it, it takes seconds to check, so I never see it as a big deal or inconvenience, in fact it is more convenient, as you have to be at the postal address to see the paper, where as online it is accessable from a wide variety of places.

sniggings

DUTR wrote: »

That should go without saying, it always puzzles me, why folk have online management for their accounts and don't use it, it takes seconds to check, so I never see it as a big deal or inconvenience, in fact it is more convenient, as you have to be at the postal address to see the paper, where as online it is accessable from a wide variety of places.

my point is why would I check a payment, that has already been agreed!, Online is meant to be convenient , which it can be, but not if you have to check your bill everyday to check to see is the computer has decided to up your payment, as said, would an email or a popup or even having the info on page 1 not page 3 be to much to ask. Just seems to me the they are meant to notify you of any change, to me that means a bit more than just changing the amount that appears on page 3. notifying to me is sending a letter, email or text not changing one figure to another.

DUTR

sniggings wrote: »

my point is why would I check a payment, that has already been agreed!, Online is meant to be convenient , which it can be, but not if you have to check your bill everyday to check to see is the computer has decided to up your payment, as said, would an email or a popup or even having the info on page 1 not page 3 be to much to ask. Just seems to me the they are meant to notify you of any change, to me that means a bit more than just changing the amount that appears on page 3. notifying to me is sending a letter, email or text not changing one figure to another.

The reason why you should is the same reason you would check a bill through the post, I know I have my Scottish power and Virgin media bill due , I will check them as VM have been a little haphazard with a standard bill over the last few months, Scottish power should be ok, but I'm expecting them to want to up the DD.

My youngest brother is of the same school as you, with the "why should I have to check?" and wanting O2 to nurture him when he exceeded or came close to his airtime allowance, over a time he just ended with a blemish on his record as they disconnected some of his services.
Me? I will continue to check, because I can and it is never a big deal to do.

Buzby

Wywth wrote: »

For the benefit of anyone that may be unfortunate to find themselves in this situation, allow me to explain how the Rules of the Direct Debit Scheme apply and how you would be protected under the Direct Debit Scheme

Take off those rose-tints:

If the DD is for 'unspecified amounts on unspecified dates' (nearly all are) a key plank has gone - the consumer has to prove a negative (in that they had not been advised of any increase or amendment). The company can choose how this is done, text, phone, email or letter, and just because you had no knowledge of it does not invalidate the payment.

The 10 days notice period is history. It is now 5 days. This is not enough for you to realise an incorrect amount and prevent a payment being taken - this is usually 3-4 days based on when the payment tapes are run.

If an error is admitted, the laughable 'guarantee' is limited to a return of your funds ONLY. Consequential loss is excluded, so if other creditors charge you because all your payments fail - tough. This is NOT their concern.

DD is a con - it is supposedly a modern way to pay. What it really is, is you giving up financial control and trusting a computer you have no relationship with (or trust) not to make you destitute.

Finally, even if you were fooled into giving a DD, and the firm amazingly forgot to take your payment - guess who is a fault? YOU! The onus remains with the consumer to pay their debts, a DD is no defence in mitigation, or an answer to a bad credit mark.

Feel free to trust a third party you don't know. I certainly don't - and never will.

sniggings

Buzby wrote: »

Take off those rose-tints:

If the DD is for 'unspecified amounts on unspecified dates' (nearly all are) a key plank has gone - the consumer has to prove a negative (in that they had not been advised of any increase or amendment). The company can choose how this is done, text, phone, email or letter, and just because you had no knowledge of it does not invalidate the payment.

The 10 days notice period is history. It is now 5 days. This is not enough for you to realise an incorrect amount and prevent a payment being taken - this is usually 3-4 days based on when the payment tapes are run.

If an error is admitted, the laughable 'guarantee' is limited to a return of your funds ONLY. Consequential loss is excluded, so if other creditors charge you because all your payments fail - tough. This is NOT their concern.

DD is a con - it is supposedly a modern way to pay. What it really is, is you giving up financial control and trusting a computer you have no relationship with (or trust) not to make you destitute.

Finally, even if you were fooled into giving a DD, and the firm amazingly forgot to take your payment - guess who is a fault? YOU! The onus remains with the consumer to pay their debts, a DD is no defence in mitigation, or an answer to a bad credit mark.

Feel free to trust a third party you don't know. I certainly don't - and never will.

wow good post :beer:

I only have 2 DDs left and plan on cancelling those as soon as I'm able, I hate the things, nothing but hassle.

Fire_Fox

sniggings wrote: »

just to update the thread, I rang BG today and got the payment lowered to £40 again, but they wouldn't refund the bank charges as they say that the info was online for me to find, my argument was if i was still on paper billing I would have received notice by letter of a doubling of my direct debit payment, I also said I received an email each month asking for a meter reading, I said why can't they at least email me or have a pop up on screen with the info as i'm hardly going to go looking to see if they have changed my D/D amount, when it was all agreed, not to mention the info online is on the 3rd screen, why would I go looking for that :mad: but he wasn't having it.

But YOU chose to switch to a paperless tariff, ergo you won't get paper notification! If you had remained on a paper tariff it could have still been on the third page of your bill, which you presumably would not have bothered to read.

sniggings wrote: »

my point is why would I check a payment, that has already been agreed!, Online is meant to be convenient , which it can be, but not if you have to check your bill everyday to check to see is the computer has decided to up your payment, as said, would an email or a popup or even having the info on page 1 not page 3 be to much to ask. Just seems to me the they are meant to notify you of any change, to me that means a bit more than just changing the amount that appears on page 3. notifying to me is sending a letter, email or text not changing one figure to another.

You don't have to check it daily, you check it regularly - the obvious time is when you submit the monthly readings they request. They bill you intermittently and recalculate DDs intermittently, the two are generally linked so when you check your online bill you receive notification of any changes. There are three pages of information because they are all relevant and important and you are expected to check them all, it's not the supplier's responsibility to spoonfeed customers.

Wywth

Buzby wrote: »

Take off those rose-tints:

If the DD is for 'unspecified amounts on unspecified dates' (nearly all are) a key plank has gone - the consumer has to prove a negative (in that they had not been advised of any increase or amendment). The company can choose how this is done, text, phone, email or letter, and just because you had no knowledge of it does not invalidate the payment.

The 10 days notice period is history. It is now 5 days. This is not enough for you to realise an incorrect amount and prevent a payment being taken - this is usually 3-4 days based on when the payment tapes are run.

If an error is admitted, the laughable 'guarantee' is limited to a return of your funds ONLY. Consequential loss is excluded, so if other creditors charge you because all your payments fail - tough. This is NOT their concern.

DD is a con - it is supposedly a modern way to pay. What it really is, is you giving up financial control and trusting a computer you have no relationship with (or trust) not to make you destitute.

Finally, even if you were fooled into giving a DD, and the firm amazingly forgot to take your payment - guess who is a fault? YOU! The onus remains with the consumer to pay their debts, a DD is no defence in mitigation, or an answer to a bad credit mark.

Feel free to trust a third party you don't know. I certainly don't - and never will.

No rose tints here.

Whilst all DDIs MUST always allow for variable amounts these days, that does not negate the need for the Originator to provide the advance notice.

The customer is required to prove nothing. The bank are obligated to take any claim made by the customer under the terms of the DD guarantee in good faith.

The Originator may be able, of course, to prove the claim to be incorrect by proving they did provide the required advance notice (proving a positive)

"DD is a con" - well if anything is laughable, that statement is.


Edit: as regards the notice period:

The Originator may agree the period of Advance Notice with the Payer or in the absence of an agreement, a minimum of 10 working days plus postal time must be given.

Source: http://www.aptbacs.co.uk/Downloads/PDF/Direct%20Debit%20Management%20Guide.pdf (page 5, step 2)