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So Who Is Responsible for Getting Bread Into the Supermarket?
Comments
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The failure of markets doesn't lead to famine. There are 3 things that lead to famine.
Temporary famine can be caused by natural disasters.
Proper famines are caused by the other two things in the C21st: war and politics.
The Tsars were able to feed the people even with their horrible feudalistic system. Stalin couldn't due to forced collectivization. Stalin killed 20-30,000,000 people because of his politically driven famine.
The great African famines of the C20th (e.g. Ethiopia/Band Aid) were caused by war.
Under a free market, people respond to price signals so as food prices rise, more people grow food. If I sow a salad crop tomorrow then I can harvest inside a month if the Government lets me and soldiers don't confiscate it.0 -
vivatifosi wrote: »
It talks about a town that only produced buckets, so in its shops you could buy, um, buckets. Or another place where Levi jeans were so treasured that owning a pair could result in a knife fight.
When my father worked, on commissioning western exported engineering projects, in the eastern bloc in the 70s it meant he did many long return visits.
He came under a lot of pressure to take out western goods with him. He never did because of the strict penalties, but Levi's were top of the list. They were willing to pay ridiculous amounts of their funny money no good to westerners.
He did take out a few packs of vacumn packed fresh coffee, formed into nice 8oz gold foil bricks, which he would give as prized gifts to those who had really befriended him."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
vivatifosi wrote: »...However I've also read, can't remember who by (Amartya Sen?) about the failure of markets leading to famine. For example when there is food available in markets but the people are too poor to afford. ....
No, Amartya Sen's argument was that there has never been a famine in a democratic country with a free press.0 -
Don't run a shop. I promise you it won't stock itself.IMHO, the shelves are full because nobody has that responsibility.
Tesco employs thousands of people to deal with supply contracts, stock levels, orders, deliveries, transport, finance and payments. If they don't get it right, empty shelves.
Communism never developed the necessary complexity. Capitalism has developed too much. Tesco now has people to organise the watering of the plants in the offices of the people who order the toilet paper for the people who change the light bulbs of the people who order the bread.
But it's a delusion to think all this happens in pursuit of raw profit in a free market. There are taxes and subsidies and market manipulations at every turn. In fact it's impossible to know whether Tesco's operation is truly profitable in any real sense. We can only say that the game is currently tilted far enough in Tesco's favour.
The idea that anybody can really take responsibility for themselves is another delusion. Even Robinson Crusoe had to start by salvaging a very convenient list of items from the ship."It will take, five, 10, 15 years to get back to where we need to be. But it's no longer the individual banks that are in the wrong, it's the banking industry as a whole." - Steven Cooper, head of personal and business banking at Barclays, talking to Martin Lewis0 -
No, Amartya Sen's argument was that there has never been a famine in a democratic country with a free press.
It is Sen I'm thinking about but I've stated it in a sloppy manner. It is he who said that there is food in markets but the poor are too poor to buy it. That's what I was getting at in terms of market failure. So first comes the trigger (poor harvest, war, etc), then comes the price rise, resulting in the poor not being able to buy, even though there is food in the markets. Yes, he did also argue about democracy but this is another issue. One could of course also argue that the markets were imperfect to start with.Please stay safe in the sun and learn the A-E of melanoma: A = asymmetry, B = irregular borders, C= different colours, D= diameter, larger than 6mm, E = evolving, is your mole changing? Most moles are not cancerous, any doubts, please check next time you visit your GP.
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Don't run a shop. I promise you it won't stock itself.
Tesco employs thousands of people to deal with supply contracts, stock levels, orders, deliveries, transport, finance and payments. If they don't get it right, empty shelves.
Communism never developed the necessary complexity. Capitalism has developed too much. Tesco now has people to organise the watering of the plants in the offices of the people who order the toilet paper for the people who change the light bulbs of the people who order the bread.
But it's a delusion to think all this happens in pursuit of raw profit in a free market. There are taxes and subsidies and market manipulations at every turn. In fact it's impossible to know whether Tesco's operation is truly profitable in any real sense. We can only say that the game is currently tilted far enough in Tesco's favour.
The idea that anybody can really take responsibility for themselves is another delusion. Even Robinson Crusoe had to start by salvaging a very convenient list of items from the ship.
To clarify, I mean that no individual in Government is charged with keeping the shelves full of bread. I'm sure Tesco, Wal Mart and Carrefour have Presidents of Supply (savory baked goods) employed.
I know farmers, truck drivers and food factory workers that do what they do because it enables them to pay their way.
Capitalism might not work but it's better than anything else we've tried.0 -
ruggedtoast wrote: »Would you grow your own wheat, mill it and make flour, do whatever you have to do to make yeast?
I cant do any of those things so I buy it from the supermarket, who get other people to do those things with my money and take a cut themselves.
This supply chain works because there is a regulatory framework in place that comes from government, which also has to be paid for.
I think most people understand this.
You can't privatise everything.
Good point. Perhaps I should look into this. Though the point I was making was to the original poster in that if there was a problem and there was no bread she would expect the goverment to sort things out. I was adding that I would be prepared for this shortage - for a little while at least.Back on the trains again!0 -
TBH I was a little surprised there wasn't more debate here.
Lots of people seem to want the Govt to intervene in house prices or rents or food or fuel prices.
They already do.
House prices & rents - manipulated by government.
Mechanisms of manipulations are not limited to, but include; restrictive planning permission, taxes upon labour and the sale of building materials, housing benefit, the setting of 'social' rents, the setting of PRS rents based upon a combination of private rents and social rents (setting of a price floor), subsidies paid to landowners (CAP payments).
Food prices - manipulated by government.
Mechanisms of manipulations are not limited to, but include; subsidies paid to landowners (CAP payments), dole payments, taxes upon labour and materials used in food production, law wrt to allotments (it is ILLEGAL to sell food for profit grown upon ones allotment for example), the granting of allotments, the provision of allotments when public land remains idle, yet people are on waiting lists for allotments.
Fuel prices - manipulated by government.
Mechanisms of manipulations are not limited to, but include; the granting of mineral rights, the clean air act (people are banned from burning coal - as well as from starting their own mining operations), taxes upon fuel (VAT, DUTY).
It is illegal for a pleb/serf like myself to chop trees for wood upon the old common for example.0 -
To add wrt fuel prices - there are vast amounts of fuel benefits out there. That help set price floors. My nan just got her quarterly gas bill for example... £300. In the same time she has received £200 in winter fuel, £50 in cold weather payments, £130 in fuel credit (paid to her energy supplier and then paid to her by her energy supplier in the form of a cheque due to her not owing them any money).0
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Don't run a shop. I promise you it won't stock itself.
Tesco employs thousands of people to deal with supply contracts, stock levels, orders, deliveries, transport, finance and payments. If they don't get it right, empty shelves.
Communism never developed the necessary complexity. Capitalism has developed too much. Tesco now has people to organise the watering of the plants in the offices of the people who order the toilet paper for the people who change the light bulbs of the people who order the bread.
But it's a delusion to think all this happens in pursuit of raw profit in a free market. There are taxes and subsidies and market manipulations at every turn. In fact it's impossible to know whether Tesco's operation is truly profitable in any real sense. We can only say that the game is currently tilted far enough in Tesco's favour.
The idea that anybody can really take responsibility for themselves is another delusion. Even Robinson Crusoe had to start by salvaging a very convenient list of items from the ship.
And if Tesco did have a very inefficient business, a competitor would come along and do it efficiently and dominate them. Capitalism at work.Faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.0
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