Is this ethical?

jimbog

princeofpounds wrote: »

It's the seller who bears moral responsibility for gazumping, not a buyer. Just because an offer is there, doesn't mean it has to be accepted. And as you yourself have shown, often buyers are not in possession of the facts to know if they are gazumping or not.

Blaming buyers for gazumping would be just as illogical as blaming sellers for gazundering.

Absolutely right. You aren't the ones gazumping - you're just submitting an offer

BigG10

But technically you, as a buyer, know that there is an offer going through and the property is technically sold STC so clearly you have a part to play in gazumping. I am sorry but I still disagree - like I say, its down to opinion, personally I wouldn't do/have done it.

The whole system of buying a house in this country is stupid enough never mind having lots of other spanners in the works.

phoebe1989seb

ValHaller wrote: »

Exactly right.

Let's define gazumping precisely.

Gazumping is when a seller accepts an offer and agrees to go off the market until exchange, but accepts another offer and faces the original purchaser with the option of matching the new offer or losing the property.

There is nothing wrong with a seller taking 2 buyers or more to exchange, provided all buyers are made aware of the situation - or the possibility - before they incur expense

Yep, it's when all buyers are not made aware of the situation that cheeses me off........as happened to us a few years ago - in the days before RM and the ease of checking online which other agents a property might be with. We were buying our dream *forever* house (asking price offer accepted, full building survey carried out etc etc) and found out on the day we were due to exchange that the vendor had another buyer racing to exchange who pipped us at the post :mad:

ValHaller

BigG10 wrote: »

But technically you, as a buyer, know that there is an offer going through and the property is technically sold STC so clearly you have a part to play in gazumping. I am sorry but I still disagree - like I say, its down to opinion, personally I wouldn't do/have done it.

As long as you are told, if you don't like it, you can pull out. If the seller does not tell the other earlier buyer, it is gazumping. But if they do tell before the other buyer incurs expense, then everyone knows where they stand and no issue. The ethics are solely down to the seller

HouseHunter001

Thanks everyone for your input.

My problem is that I really don't know whether the vendor agreed with the first buyer to go off the market until exchange, since I am getting two different stories from two EAs, neither of whom is being 100% consistent in what they say to me.

That's the bit that's really bothering me: if I knew for a fact that the first buyer had been told that the property was off the market, I can see a strong ethical argument for pulling out. If, on the other hand, the first buyer knew that the property was still on the market and the vendor was still open to anyone wishing to offer the asking price, my conscience would be clear.

I can keep on asking questions to try and get to the bottom of it, but if I do that I'll just end up p***ing off both EAs and the vendor, and queer my pitch thorougly. I could just pull out anyway, of course, but I really don't want to lose this house as I'm very unlikely to find another one I like as much, and I'd be a mug to pull out just because an EA was spinning me a line.

So I guess I'm just going to press ahead with the sale, unless and until I hear anything which makes me change my mind!

By the way, is it normal for EAs to sell a house STC and agree to take it off the market, but still to leave it on their website without any indication that it is sold STC, and without marking their boards as 'sold'? I'm not just talking about RightMove here; both EAs websites were (and are) still showing the house as available. EA2 implied that this was normal practice, but it sounds weird to me.

isisini

When we were buying a place we were in a 'race to contract' with another buyer. We were able to proceed more quickly and got it. It was stressful! And we did feel sorry for the people who lost fees and time. As said above, if you enter into it with your eyes open, I think it's okay. But you have to be prepared to be the buyer who loses out, and if the vendor has gazumped one person, they could do it again if another buyer comes into the frame. So do it if you really want the house, but be prepared for it to be a difficult experience!

HouseHunter001

Just heard from my EA (EA1) that the other cash buyer has pulled out - maybe because they couldn't match my offer, but I'll never know for sure. I still feel bad about it, but at least I don't have an ethical dilemma now. I'm well aware, of course, that the same thing could still happen to me!

ValHaller

HouseHunter001 wrote: »

Just heard from my EA (EA1) that the other cash buyer has pulled out - maybe because they couldn't match my offer, but I'll never know for sure. I still feel bad about it, but at least I don't have an ethical dilemma now. I'm well aware, of course, that the same thing could still happen to me!

Do you have a promise that the property is off the market?

Then test that promise by getting a mystery buyer on board to see if they can get a viewing. Leave it a while - I would say risk the survey fee and test after survey but don't get the legals started until your mystery buyer shows things are clean.

BigG10

ValHaller wrote: »

Do you have a promise that the property is off the market?

Then test that promise by getting a mystery buyer on board to see if they can get a viewing. Leave it a while - I would say risk the survey fee and test after survey but don't get the legals started until your mystery buyer shows things are clean.

Agree with all the above. If the buyer was told it was going to remain on the market then fair enough. Stooopid buyer if you ask me. I wouldn't touch with a barge pole if someone said they wouldn't take a house off the market and we were in a race to exchange.

I would also do the mystery buyer test - something I do with every single house purchase I have had to date. Infact I did it yesterday on our current purchase. Low and behold - they were told no more viewings and sorry its off the market. :T:T

I also phoned them up yesterday and reminded them that the sold board hadn't gone up yet. However, the property still remains on their website and doesn't even say "under offer" but my mystery phone test was enough for me!

HouseHunter001

Yes, they have told me that the vendor has agreed to take it off the market (no more viewings with either agent), and I've asked for it to be taken off the website also, or marked as SSTC. Good idea about the 'mystery buyer'; they probably know my voice by now, but I could get a friend to phone up and do it...