lets get back to basics... starting with the butcher

ferretkeeper

defairmans wrote: »

Why doesn't everyone go vegetarian?

This is not the purpose of the thread but I will answer you anyway.

By definition vegetarians still eat dairy/eggs etc - these come from living things. They come from the female version of their respective creatures, so what do you suppose happens to the males that are born to these animals? Day old male chicks are gassed, day old male dairy calves are shot or sent to Europe to be reared in dark boxes for veal. A shameful waste, completely unethical IMHO. Organic hens come from the same large scale breeders so are contributing to this problem and large organic laying flocks are still culled at a year or so when productivity starts to fall.

Still wanna eat eggs Defairmans?

I prefer to take the holistic view - I will eat rose veal because I drink milk from cows. I eat the male chickens that hatch from my hens and keep the females to add to my flock because I keep dual purpose breeds that will lay well and produce good table birds. You won't find eggs from these types of chicken in the supermarket, only on the doorsteps of people keeping a few hens.

I don't eat much meat despite having my own produce, mainly because I was a veggie for 20+ years and got used to veg based meals. I became veggie for sentimental animal welfare reasons, I was barely a teenager and there was not the choice or wealth of information that there is now about animal welfare. But when I became aware of the things I mentioned above I realised being veggie wasn't good enough. I decided to produce my own food, as much as I could. No-one was ever going to deceive me about what was on my plate again.

Animal welfare aside, food is produced with so little care for the earth it is grown on, consumers don't really care as long as it's cheap but they fail to take into consideration the real cost of cheap food.

Where does all the 'vegetable fat' in food come from? It ain't carrots or potatoes. It's usually palm oil, there's no legal requirement to specifically list it as such, it's grown in deforested areas with slave labour, so it's cheap. Choose British sunflower or rape seed oil or olive oil instead.

Same goes for soya products - grown where rainforests are pulled down, and not just as veggie substitutes for mince etc but also a major component in most animal feed. I am switching everyone over to grain/beans etc grown in the UK.

So veggies have just as much to think about as meat eaters if they really want to do the right thing by the planet, but as long as people want meat I will produce the best I can with maximum care given to the animals and the planet that feeds them.

If anyone's interested I am adapting my farm (and home and life!) to run using the principles of Permaculture. I decided to do that when I heard that for every calorie of food consumed it takes 10 calories to produce it, madness or what? A lot is down to reliance on fossil fuels etc but there's a lot more to it, I'd encourage everyone to have a little look into permaculture!

frugal_shopper_2

defairmans wrote: »

Butchers have no right selling the dead.

Why doesn't everyone go vegetarian?

Makes me think of one of the signs in my butchers window.....

Fire_Fox

defairmans wrote: »

There's no reason for anyone here to be eating other living things. Your bodies should not be graveyards to other living things that wanted to live and breathe. Butchers have no right selling the dead.

Why doesn't everyone go vegetarian?

So omega-3s are not essential fatty acids, the best source being DHA and EPA in oily fish? Sources of haem iron, bioavailable vitamin D, vitamin B12 or calcium that do not involve creatures being killed, including male chicks and calves for eggs and dairy industries?

It's incredibly difficult to eat enough plants to convert short chain to long chain omega-3s - conversion as low as 10% - without resorting to supplements or taking in too much omega-6s for health. You need hundreds of grams of nuts, seeds or green veggies each and each day to get enough calcium without dairy or long stewed bones. Ultimately being a really healthy vegan or vegetarian involves eating unnatural supplements (eg. marine algae) or fortified foods (eg. rice milk with added chalk) or extracts (eg. yeast extract) or heavily processed foods (eg. tofu) and/ or regimenting the diet.

Humans evolved eating other living things for nutrients, we are omnivores not herbivores. We have eaten land animals including the offal and bone marrow, eggs likely including fertilised ones, fish and other seafood - ref: mollusc shell middens, 'out of Africa' theory maps - for millennia. We even adapted to farming animals, which is why many of those of European descent can digest the milk sugar lactose into adulthood whereas many in Asia and elsewhere are intolerant. What is cruel are many of our modern farming methods.

I work in lifestyle healthcare including being qualified to do nutrition consultations BTW I am not spouting commercial paleo/ primal books.

GlynD

defairmans wrote: »

Maybe not, but where there is suffering, I will speak of it.


but, hey, I am the troublemaker, right? :T

This is off topic for this thread. May I suggest if you want to talk vegetarianism you start your own thread and not detract from this useful one which is informative to people wishing to buy from butchers?

defairmans

FireFox, you are obviously more qualified than me on this matter, so I understand what you are saying. Obviously these sources are the best way of getting the vitamins we need in terms of absorbtion. Ie: the calcium uptake in milk compared to green vegetables is far greater but that is because it is calves milk. Gross. Why do we not continue to drink our mother's breast milk, then? We have evolved through years of eating this way to now require these levels. I don't think this is what was required before we evolved to this stage.

Fire_Fox wrote: »

So omega-3s are not essential fatty acids, the best source being DHA and EPA in oily fish? Sources of haem iron, bioavailable vitamin D, vitamin B12 or calcium that do not involve creatures being killed, including male chicks and calves for eggs and dairy industries?

It depends on the vitamin and mineral, doesn't it? I haven't eaten fish since I was a child and I have never had problems with things like omega, vitamin B, D, etc. I do not think that a vegan diet is the most beneficial and sustainable. I just think that factory farming is the least. Most people wouldn't even care if they were in this perfect state of health. Like the poster above said, everyone wants cheap food, so they are not going to be worried about their B12 levels.

It's incredibly difficult to eat enough plants to convert short chain to long chain omega-3s - conversion as low as 10% - without resorting to supplements or taking in too much omega-6s for health. You need hundreds of grams of nuts, seeds or green veggies each and each day to get enough calcium without dairy or long stewed bones. Ultimately being a really healthy vegan or vegetarian involves eating unnatural supplements (eg. marine algae) or fortified foods (eg. rice milk with added chalk) or extracts (eg. yeast extract) or heavily processed foods (eg. tofu) and/ or regimenting the diet.

You know this is not necessarily true. Each person is different, and as with many diets, the body adapts to its intake. Some people live very healthily on completely raw food diets with natural supplements and natural foods have been shown to have amazing results on illnesses and disease. I am not saying that meat doesn't have a beneficial effect, but is it the best course to take in this point in time when we are seeing things like horsemeat and chemicals seeping into an already dangerous food supply??

Humans evolved eating other living things for nutrients, we are omnivores not herbivores. We have eaten land animals including the offal and bone marrow, eggs likely including fertilised ones, fish and other seafood - ref: mollusc shell middens, 'out of Africa' theory maps - for millennia. We even adapted to farming animals, which is why many of those of European descent can digest the milk sugar lactose into adulthood whereas many in Asia and elsewhere are intolerant. What is cruel are many of our modern farming methods.

And now we need to evolve into more compassionate eaters. Few people know about the cruel methods, which is why I also feel compelled to speak up. If anything, I am supporting the main idea of the thread to eat locally, but not without thought.
Re Asia, we know that the lifespan there is longer and I think it is because of the vegetables involved, not the fish and meat that is consumed. More to do with the Buddhist ways of eating that Asia has grown from. And lactase is still something that harms us as we grow older and older, Westerners or not.

defairmans

GlynD wrote: »

This is off topic for this thread. May I suggest if you want to talk vegetarianism you start your own thread and not detract from this useful one which is informative to people wishing to buy from butchers?

I don't think it is really off topic as I am discussing the idea of butchers and local meat producers as compared to the horsemeat shops but I will stop now. Sorry to hijack the last page but my opinion is as valid as others. If one person reads anything of what I posted and maybe (maybe, maybe...) thinks about not contributing to animal slaughter than it is worth it for me. PM me if wanting to continue conversation off thread.

Sorry.
Support local food! :A

Fire_Fox

defairmans wrote: »

you must have a very good reason, although I can't imagine what it is, apart from the desire for meat because you seem quite aware that you can get all your nutritional needs from non-animal products. I am sure you can see the benefit in your lifestyle minus the meat.

This is a fact. There are meat substitues that taste good, cost a fraction of the price, do not make half as much of a dent in grain, water and fuel supply, cause less pollution, are healthier, tastier, free from blood, flesh, chemicals, are cheaper, don't cause suffering...
but, hey, I am the troublemaker, right? :T

I'd love to see you back up the emboldened claims with research published in reputable scientific journals and large scale surveys. Meat substitutes are NOT universally healthier than animal foods, and frankly I think as many westerners would tell you many taste disgusting as would tell you molluscs and offal are disgusting.

I found dried soya mince inedible even in a meal that contained numerous other flavourings. Quorn is palatable but full of additives, expensive, is not vegan friendly anyway. Tofu is heavily processed, far from cheap, has a revolting texture and no real flavour. Veggie burgers are often primarily cheap refined heavily processed carbs not pricey protein and certainly not vitamins and minerals. The added fats are generally unhealthy omega-6 rich vegetable oils or palm oil. None of these highly processed products fits in with my wholefood ethos.

Fire_Fox

defairmans wrote: »

FireFox, you are obviously more qualified than me on this matter, so I understand what you are saying. Obviously these sources are the best way of getting the vitamins we need in terms of absorbtion. Ie: the calcium uptake in milk compared to green vegetables is far greater but that is because it is calves milk. Gross. Why do we not continue to drink our mother's breast milk, then? We have evolved through years of eating this way to now require these levels. I don't think this is what was required before we evolved to this stage.

It depends on the vitamin and mineral, doesn't it? I haven't eaten fish since I was a child and I have never had problems with things like omega, vitamin B, D, etc. I do not think that a vegan diet is the most beneficial and sustainable. I just think that factory farming is the least. Most people wouldn't even care if they were in this perfect state of health. Like the poster above said, everyone wants cheap food, so they are not going to be worried about their B12 levels.

You know this is not necessarily true. Each person is different, and as with many diets, the body adapts to its intake. Some people live very healthily on completely raw food diets with natural supplements and natural foods have been shown to have amazing results on illnesses and disease. I am not saying that meat doesn't have a beneficial effect, but is it the best course to take in this point in time when we are seeing things like horsemeat and chemicals seeping into an already dangerous food supply??


And now we need to evolve into more compassionate eaters. Few people know about the cruel methods, which is why I also feel compelled to speak up. If anything, I am supporting the main idea of the thread to eat locally, but not without thought.
Re Asia, we know that the lifespan there is longer and I think it is because of the vegetables involved, not the fish and meat that is consumed. More to do with the Buddhist ways of eating that Asia has grown from. And lactase is still something that harms us as we grow older and older, Westerners or not.

Health is about far more than lifespan. World Health Organisation definition "a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."
No it doesn't depend on the vitamin or mineral, micronutrients are essential to health! The supplements many raw fooders and vegans take are anything but natural, they are highly processed - we can't even digest wheat grass or whole flaxseeds for example.

Many proponents of alternative diets and alternative medicine confuse healthy with healthIER. What are you comparing these diets to, the average UK or US diet that is associated with malnutrition including obesity and a host of lifestyle diseases? Of course a well balanced plant based diet is healthIER, that's a disingenuous comparison since no medical professional has ever claimed the average UK or US diet is anything but harmful.

Which foods evolved specifically for humans to eat them? Not eggs, dairy or meat clearly, a few fruits perhaps so should we all be fruitarians like Steve Jobs? His restrictive vegan diet is believed to have contributed to his untimely death. Didn't give him symptoms right away either, as it turned out not until it was too late to save his life. Being asymptomatic does not equate to health, lifestyle conditions don't develop overnight there are signs long before there are symptoms.

You think or you have read the studies? Not the commercial Rice Diet or China Study (debunked) books but a full literature search taking in the meta analyses and longitudinal population studies in their original forms. Vegetables are absolutely part of the equation, as is the fish, the modest serving sizes of terrestrial meat, the amount of physical activity. Again it's disingenuous to pick out one single food group, health is about the interaction of many habits and choices.

Before dairy we likely got our calcium from a combination of the plant food we ate plus bone and insects - small fish bones eaten whole, large meat bones and perhaps whole shellfish stewed for hours until the broth was rich in minerals. Bones were scraped of meat and smashed open to access the marrow, allowing yet more calcium to get into the diet. Magnesium (nuts, seeds, beans, lentils, bonemeal, dairy) and vitamin D (oily fish, sunlight, eggs, dairy) are required to fully utilise the calcium.

Since we were far more physically active than today our skeleton was strengthened to withstand the high impact activity of running, power actions like throwing and repetitive ones like scraping animal skins for clothing or shelter. We don't continue to drink mother's milk because she moves onto feeding the next newborn and the next and the next ....

What is the bet course of action to take given the horsemeat drama? For me, not much. Pretty sure the eggs, trout, mackerel and chicken liver I eat are actually eggs, trout, mackerel and the liver of a small creature! Perhaps the occasional serving of fresh turkey or pork mince contain horse but it doesn't freak me out, meat is meat. The most dangerous thing in our food supply IMO is sugar, closely followed by processed refined starchy carbs like most wheat products.

DonnaP

One of the reasons I have reduced the amount of time I read these boards is the arguing between people and some individuals hijacking threads for their own aims.

This thread would be really useful to me. I don't want to read a debate between meat eaters and vegetarians.

Why bother even responding to someone who is trying to take the thread off topic??

COOLTRIKERCHICK

Ferretkeeper, I would love to see you over on the daydream thread on the greenfingered board, I can ask you loads of questions etc.. as it would be off topic here...

Frugal Shopper fair dos you know your stuff:beer::beer::beer:

another meat question you might be able to answer:p

When you buy meat what are the tell tale signs to not eat it?

is meat ok to eat if its starting to turn brown?

What if it smells a bit like vinegar?

I thought these types of questions might help other peeps