Advice on ongoing car repair please

Krayzee

I'm very concerned about the problem regarding our car's engine, and the potential bill I may receive at the end of this all. I really advice on my options. Bear with me, as it's a little lengthy, but I need to get the details right so that I know how best to proceed. I'm not a car man (I'm learning as I go but most of what the mechanics tell me goes right over my head - I'm more of a computers man), but I've been going to this particular garage for years, I know both the owner and his son, having gone to the same school years ago. Not really important but as they know me, they should be looking after me - yes I know this isn't always the case with a lot of things...

On the 19th January, as we were arriving home from a local trip, our Vauxhall Zafira 1.8 (04 reg) cut out and wouldn't start. I phoned our local independent car garage (maintenance/repair/MOT/service, they're not a dealership) on Monday 21st, who arranged for the car to be picked up and taken to them.

Upon inspection, I was advised on Tuesday 22nd that the timing (cam) belt had come off, and had damaged 10 of the 16 valves, and the valve guides. It would need to be sent away to a specialised company to be repaired and the total amount due would be in the region of £1800 - labour, parts (new timing belt, repair cylinder head, plugs, filters etc). I agreed to the repair - yes it's a large amount of money, but buying another car would cost more.

I finally collected the car on Thursday 7th February, late afternoon and the cost was very slightly over £1800.

On Monday 11th February morning, after a short, local car journey, we noticed a strong burning smell with smoke coming from the bonnet and there was oil all over our driveway. Checking the fluid levels, there was no oil and no coolant. I filled up and took it straight back to the garage to tell them what had happened. They said they would look at it when they could, but it wasn't until Thursday 14th (yesterday) evening that, after me calling them, they told me that the oil and water had mixed, that they didn't know why, and that they didn't know why it had leaked out.

At this point I'm very concerned at a lack of duty of care. I've spent £1800 on a 'repair' and the car is still broken. The mechanic surmised that there might be a small crack in the head gasket (I hope I'm remembering this correctly) that would widen when hot enough, causing the leak, and that he would have to get the specialised company they used previously, to do a crack test on it - heat it up to a high enough temperature and check for leaks. He said they don't do crack tests when performing the head unit repairs - considering the amount of damage done when timing belts come off, I find this bemusing but I don't know the cost of a crack test.

This afternoon I got a call that the crack test showed no flaws in the head gasket (it might have been the cylinder head - I'm no mechanic) and that the only thing they can try now is to fit a new one that is hopefully compatible with the engine (their words!). I replied "So this is now trial and error?", "yes" he replied!!

If this new head isn't the solution to the problem, I've been told the only other possibility is a crack in the bottom half of the unit, in which case it's a write off and they'll need to source a second-hand engine and put that in.

It wasn't until later that I realised they never offered me the option in the first place, of having a second-hand engine put in. All I was told, was that it would be £1800 to repair it. A repair that didn't work as there looks like there's another underlying problem.

So they are getting a new head gasket on Monday to fit (they said they would do this on warranty - that's all they said though, I don't know if this just the part, or includes labour etc) and road test, and then if they don't find any problems they'll give it back to me as fixed (like the last time....). In which case I'll be road testing it for the next few weeks/months. They've not mentioned anything about prices, but I'm very concerned I'll have another large bill to pay, for another repair, that may not have been successful for a second time.

I'm convinced they have failed in their duty of care to me, their customer. I would've thought the best practice would be to offer me the options for me to decide - £1800 to repair the engine but there may be other problems we don't yet know about, or £xxx to fit a second-hand engine (I don't have a figure for this at the moment).

If it was less than £1800, it's likely I'd have chosen the simpler option of the second-hand engine. At this point you could argue hindsight, but I would argue logic and common sense that this could have all been avoided. It seems like they've created a lot of work for themselves, at a great cost for someone (me?), and it was totally unnecessary and avoidable.

So, what is my position here? What are my next steps? And from a legal point of view?

The £1800 I've already spent on the first 'repair' was on a credit card, so it can be recalled if it comes down to it, but again, I need to check on the legalities of doing this - they have done work to my car, but they haven't fixed it. Was this because of damage to the engine that they couldn't have foreseen? Or should they have advised me of this, and suggested the second-hand engine straight away, instead of wasting £1800 on an engine repair that was unsuccessful.

I don't know what will happen next week when they call me about this latest repair - should I have to pay yet more money, even if they weren't able to fix the engine? I would then have to pay a third bill for them to remove this broken engine and fit a second-hand one. I'm assuming the bill would then be several thousands, in which case buying another car would've been the cheaper option! Yes these are 'what ifs', but it helps to know my position.

I have very, very little money at the moment (hence the credit card for the £1800, which is now maxed out) so I'm extremely concerned at how this will all turn out.

Thank you very much for any advice you can offer

Chris

fishybusiness

Hi,

Upon inspection, I was advised on Tuesday 22nd that the timing (cam) belt had come off, and had damaged 10 of the 16 valves

Do you know if they said the belt had come off or snapped? Reason being that if it had come off it may be indicative of another fault rather than a more obvious snapped belt.

The crack issue you refer to could have been in the head (aka cylinder head), obviously now ruled out, I'd say a crack in the block (the lower half of the engine) is doubtful, and also consider the original issue was with the timing belt.

It is possible their workmanship in refitting the head and ancillaries was at fault, for example they may not have tightened up the cylinder head bolts correctly (there is a sequence and specific torque for head bolts), and thus that could have caused the faults. However, you won't have any proof of this.

Their work should be warranted for a specific timeframe, is there any info on the invoice?

Options...

Ask them to check the head and block for warping (meaning the surfaces are no longer flat. as they should be), and if all is ok, allow the rebuild again at their expense. Make sure you understand any warranty they [do not] offer. I guess they are saying that if you agree to this, once they have fitted it, it is not their problem any more.

Find out why a full engine wasn't suggested as a replacement, perhaps a bit late now, but nonetheless you were relying on their judgement, and it may have (probably) been a cheaper option.

Make a claim through your credit card.

C_Mababejive

+1 for what he said #2

Krayzee

Thank you very much for your help. On the invoice it says "All parts and labour are guaranteed for 12 months or 12,000 miles unless otherwise stated" - there are no other statements. So I really hope the work they are currently doing - the investigation, the crack test, the fitting of another head gasket - comes under this warranty and I won't be billed again.

Regarding the warping, I presume this is what is meant by "cylinder head skim", in which case this is on the £1800 invoice that I have paid for.

This has made me feel better - it's difficult to argue a case when you're not sure of where you stand. Going forward, I will have to wait until Monday to see what the outcome is - whether:

(a) the car will then be running fine and I won't have to pay any more than I already have done (I may not know that it's ok until after several days of driving, but at least the work is under warranty), or

(b) it needs a new engine which I will have to pay for, but I will then make a claim through my credit card, to get the original £1800 back.

If I have to make a claim to get my £1800 back, could the garage then take legal action against me? There are other issues at home that I'm having to deal with, and I may not (mentally) be able to add a legal battle to that list.

worried_jim

Krayzee wrote: »

It would need to be sent away to a specialised company to be repaired and the total amount due would be in the region of £1800 - labour, parts (new timing belt, repair cylinder head, plugs, filters etc). I agreed to the repair - yes it's a large amount of money, but buying another car would cost more.

I hope you get this sorted, but-

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201302015156022/sort/default/usedcars/engine-size-cars/1-7l_to_1-9l/fuel-type/petrol/maximum-age/up_to_10_years_old/model/zafira/make/vauxhall/onesearchad/used/onesearchad/nearlynew/onesearchad/new/postcode/bn424sn/page/1/radius/1500?logcode=p

You can get a replacement car the same age/model etc for about £1400.

fishybusiness

From what you have said, it looks like your warranty does cover you.

Regarding the warping, I presume this is what is meant by "cylinder head skim", in which case this is on the £1800 invoice that I have paid for.

I was also thinking about what you describe as losing oil and water after the repair, and the garage suggesting the head gasket may have failed. Hopefully no damage was done, it is worth checking both head and block surfaces with a straight edge.

I don't know about the garage and legal action, hopefully someone else can help.

TrickyWicky

Krayzee wrote: »

The mechanic surmised that there might be a small crack in the head gasket (I hope I'm remembering this correctly) that would widen when hot enough, causing the leak

Thats not the head gasket, thats the head itself - the big lump of metal with all the valves etc in it. The gasket is just a cheap bit of metal that sits between the two. It's the actual head that is suspect and they're not cheap to replace. They usually weigh about 20 kilos for an average engine sized car (say 1.6 - 2L) so as you can imagine thats a lot of metal value. Add to that the cost of machining it etc, they're very expensive when purchased new.

Assuming it is that which has given up the ghost, you'd be better off purchasing a scrap engine and having that fitted. You may get lucky and find a head but not many people will break an engine when they can just sell it complete. That said, it does happen.

Whatever happens, this repair has a warranty so I wouldn't worry too much but just confirm with them that they will take care of it under their warranty. Be sure to leave a mark on the engine head somewhere (eg with a metal punch) so that you can identify it is yours. If its cracked, they may try to use a temporary sealant (bodge) that will last a few months and nothing more. Then you will be back to square one so you need to be able to tell if they've replaced the head or used the existing one. If they say its definitely cracked and you can see they've re-used it then they have bodged it and you'll be in trouble again in a few months - certainly not a £1.8k repair!

Warning though, the engine head is not the top of it - that is just another cover. You want the next piece of big metal under it somewhere. Just give it a quick tap or scratch somewhere so that you know what to look for. If you don't then they could do the bodge, you'd never know the difference and in a few months you're suffering again.

Also the longer they take doing this, the more chance there is that they are genuinely sourcing another head for your engine (or even another engine). The more you push and rush them the more tempted they could be to bodge it just to keep you sweet so you may want to consider giving them time to get it sorted and do a proper job.

Hope that helps..

fishybusiness

Assuming it is that which has given up the ghost, you'd be better off purchasing a scrap engine and having that fitted. You may get lucky and find a head but not many people will break an engine when they can just sell it complete. That said, it does happen.

I may have read it wrongly, but I thought the first post defined that at some point the head has been crack tested.

This afternoon I got a call that the crack test showed no flaws in the head gasket (it might have been the cylinder head - I'm no mechanic)

I'm assuming they meant cylinder head.

TrickyWicky

Yes I know I read that too but it would be unlikely that the actual gasket itself has cracked.

We're also assuming the garage were truthful about getting it tested instead of adding an imaginery job to the bill.

colino

You have to keep on top of them, get fixed timescales for repair and call them every day. You will know by now that you paid too much for the repair and the attempted repair was carried out very badly. Persist and get them to fix properly and speedily. Zafiras don't have a great track record but there's plenty of decent reconditioners who can pressure and crack test the head and block, and once they are sound, and with all of those new parts properly fitted there's no reason it shouldn't do another 80k.

Krayzee

Thanks very much for all your help. I picked the car up today and can confirm there were no further charges - a big relief but the next stage is finding out whether this second attempt at a repair has succeeded, but I'll only know that after several days of usage.

On the work invoice I got, it says "remove cylinder head for crack testing", which they told me it passed, and "carry out head gasket replacement and repair".

After speaking with the owner yesterday, I thought he was explaining to me how the cylinder head was faulty due to the teflon coating flaking off, so they couldn't apply the correct tension, but now it seems the fault was in the head gasket, causing the oil and water to mix - not sure how this explains how it leaked out onto the driveway though.

Regardless, I've put a tray under the car to check regularly for leaks. I'd be delighted to keep the car for another 80000 miles - it'll hopefully give me enough time to pay off this bill and save for a newer car

I hope this is the end of this farce, and that it is now fixed. If it isn't, I'll report back, probably with more questions too.

Thanks again everyone.