Help Me With Student Finance Application Please!!!

Interista

I'm in something of a quagmire as regards student funding. I will be doing a PGCE in Primary Education in a Welsh University but, whilst I am Welsh, I have lived in the EU for the past ten years. I am returning to Wales prior to 1st September and after a lot of digging around and talking to people I have found out the following information.

It seems I qualify under category 6 as a UK citizen who exercised a right to reside in the EU, and so am eligible for full funding.

However, the LEAs are throwing a spanner in the works because my wife will likely continue to reside in Ireland for the duration of the course and so they are saying I am returning to Wales solely for education. This is simply not true. My wife is staying in Ireland because she has a full time job there, and can't afford to quit whilst I'm studying but as a family we will be moving to the UK when I complete my studies and am able to work. The alternative is she gives up a full time job in Ireland to move to the UK to sign on the dole. She is applying for work in the UK, but has so far been unsuccessful, we feel maybe somewhat owed to her having an Irish address.

We also have a child in school in Ireland whose feelings and welfare we have to take into account.

The LEAs also don't like the fact that I don't know which authority I will be living in, but this is due to the fact that the University I will be going to can cast the net quite widely in terms of where to send people on placements, so for example, if I was to commit to a rental property in Holyhead now, I could find myself having to travel to Llanelli on a daily basis which is unrealistic.

We are fully committed to moving PERMANENTLY to the UK, but its almost impossible to prove something will happen and they want to focus on the here-and-now.

Its very frustrating because to top it all off, its unrealistic that I would even want to do a PGCE in Primary Education if my desire was to return to Ireland because I cannot work in an Irish school as there is a requirement to speak fluent Gaelic, and I don't speak a word of it.

I haven't applied for finance as yet, because I'm trying to find out where I stand beforehand. Can they allege that I will return to Ireland simply because, for the good of our financial situation, my wife retains her full time job there during my studies as opposed to her signing on the dole in the UK?

They told me they want to see stuff like her registering for Council Tax, on the electoral register in UK, cancelled on electoral register in Ireland, that we're selling our (negative equity) home in Ireland instead of renting it out, that our son is in school in Wales as of September etc.

NB: I had previously posted this in another thread but it seemed to be in the wrong place as there was a lack of response whilst it has been up for some days, so if you feel you're reading the same thing twice, that's why .

Fire_Fox

Sorry but you clearly are moving temporarily to Wales solely for education. Your permanent family home will remain in Ireland for the duration of your course, your family have long term commitments there, you will be renting something temporary for you alone here. Your hopes and dreams for the future are irrelevant, they look at the position at the point you apply for finance.

The alternative seems to me to be that you postpone your education for a year until your family is setted permanently in Wales with work, home, school and documentation to prove that. They should not have to insist that you sell the house, plenty of people have a let property that is not their main home. However I'd be surprised if the lender gave you consent to lease for a negative equity property, more so if you intend to be a student and your wife unemployed - have you given them the FULL picture or just assumed that would be permissable?

You might also want to investigate the position as regards Jobseekers Allowance, if you do get full student finance your wife may be entitled to very little due to your income. Also consider that rental income for somewhere that is not your main home counts as income for the purposes of student finance and benefits, you cannot simply offset the mortgage.

Lastly unless things have changed you cannot simply quit your job to sign on that would usually be subject to a sanction. I did it (briefly) a good number of years ago but had to prove that the move was essential - in my case I had been formally served notice to quit in a rental property yet owned an empty apartment near relatives so it was clear I would have been homeless otherwise and had strong connections to the new area.

Interista

Fire_Fox wrote: »

Sorry but you clearly are moving temporarily to Wales solely for education. Your permanent family home will remain in Ireland for the duration of your course, your family have long term commitments there, you will be renting something temporary for you alone here. Your hopes and dreams for the future are irrelevant, they look at the position at the point you apply for finance.

I can quite categorically assure you I am not returning to Wales on a temporary basis. And frankly, it smacks of discrimination that a child can go to the UK under category 6 whilst his parents remain elsewhere in the EU and qualify for full funding, whereas a spouse cannot. What you're saying is tantamount to discrimination on the basis of marital status because if I were not married you would be telling me I am eligible.

I suppose you'd say the same if we were separated? And there are plenty of married couples who reside in different areas/countries.

The course I will be doing has absolutely ZERO relevance to the Irish jobs market in my situation, as to work in primary education in Ireland you need Gaelic and religion qualifications within the Irish system, neither of which I have. So it would make absolutely no sense for me to do the course if I had in mind to return to Ireland. It would be a waste of time and money. I accept that there are people from Ireland who qualify via this route, but they have come through the Irish education system and so have the relevant qualifications. I did not, and so do not. How long do you envisage it taking me to learn Gaelic from the point of not a word to a point of fluency? That in itself should be seen as why I'm doing the course. And postponing for a year is not a great option, I'm not a 21-year-old anymore.

Fire_Fox

Interista wrote: »

I can quite categorically assure you I am not returning to Wales on a temporary basis. And frankly, it smacks of discrimination that a child can go to the UK under category 6 whilst his parents remain elsewhere in the EU and qualify for full funding, whereas a spouse cannot. What you're saying is tantamount to discrimination on the basis of marital status because if I were not married you would be telling me I am eligible.

I suppose you'd say the same if we were separated? And there are plenty of married couples who reside in different areas/countries.

The course I will be doing has absolutely ZERO relevance to the Irish jobs market in my situation, as to work in primary education in Ireland you need Gaelic and religion qualifications within the Irish system, neither of which I have. So it would make absolutely no sense for me to do the course if I had in mind to return to Ireland. It would be a waste of time and money. I accept that there are people from Ireland who qualify via this route, but they have come through the Irish education system and so have the relevant qualifications. I did not, and so do not. How long do you envisage it taking me to learn Gaelic from the point of not a word to a point of fluency? That in itself should be seen as why I'm doing the course. And postponing for a year is not a great option, I'm not a 21-year-old anymore.

Why ask a question and then throw your toys out of the pram when you don't like the answer? I am not giving my personal opinion or discriminating, I don't make the rules! :rotfl: As I said "you will be renting something temporary for you alone here. Your hopes and dreams for the future are irrelevant, they look at the position at the point you apply for finance." Your family life, your family home remains in Ireland.

Married couples do live apart for work, and it causes no end of problems with the powers that be: married couples are usually deemed to live together in fact sometimes UNmarried couples can be deemed to live together even when they still have access to two properties. For example if they keep a lot of possessions in each others home, have statements or bills sent there, grocery shop and cook together regularly, possibly sleep in the same place regularly, perhaps joint financial products. Basically carry on domestic life together.

Generally a main home is (semi) permanent, contains most of your personal belongings, you work nearby, spend much of your leisure time there, registered for bills, receive bank statements and so on. You don't have to tick all the boxes there is some flexibility but you have to tick some or most - I don't see any indication you intend to tick any of the boxes, your student accommodation will be entirely temporary, lodgings anywhere convenient not a family home.

Being officially/ formally/ permanently separated is different, you then need to make a declaration to various official bodies that is the case and you would be expected to have no domestic life with your estranged wife if you visited your child in Ireland, to not use that property as your home (belongings, bills, statements etc). Alternatively you could try making the connections to Wales stronger (purchase a family home here where most of your family belongings are kept, your wife and child live with you every holiday), and the connections to Ireland weaker (sell up, your wife and child move into temporary accommodation, even your child move with you and your wife stay on alone) but I suspect that will be impractical.

I would strongly recommend you don't tell porky pies about a separation to Student Finance or to Department of Work and Pensions, it is fraud. That holds regardless if you have previously been living together married or unmarried.

Plenty of mature students postpone for a year or more, I didn't go the traditional route myself and was last studying at degree level in my mid thirties. IMO you need to suck up a compromise, either you need to disrupt your family life significantly or postpone, which works best for you is a personal decision. BTW an 18 year old undergraduate is not a child they are a partial dependent, not the same at all.

Interista

So then why do Student Finance European Union team tell me they'd reject me because I'm a Home Student, and you tell me I can't apply to Student Finance Wales?

Oh, and I didn't accuse you of discrimination, I said the idea is discriminatory because it allows for a child (correct terminology, even at 80 you are still someone's child not someone's adult) to stay in Halls of Residence which are entirely temporary with their parents in another country. I do understand your point, but is a child in Halls of Residence any more/less likely to return to their parents? Or do we assume they will stay in Halls after their course?

And no-one mentioned "porky pies" (I assume from this you mean lies, why the playground terminology?).

Taiko

Was going to offer help on this, but I'm going to decline the request. I am aware of the regulations, and there are other issues that could be explored, but as someone volunteering their vast knowledge on the subject on this website, I feel I can at least choose where it goes.

All the best with your studies.

Interista

I don't understand why people seem to think I'm being offensive, I'm genuinely not. I will say I'm very frustrated because I'm being shunted around by being told different things by Student Finance Wales, Student Finance European Union, the LEAs, UKCisa, the Welsh Assembly and there doesn't seem to be anyone I can get advice from.

If I have, unwittingly, been offensive to anyone, I apologise. I do really feel that Fire Fox was quite heavy handed with me from his/her first reply, and more so with the second.

Its a big enough organisational task without the stress of not even really knowing where to apply to, and different people telling you to apply here, there, or somewhere else. I wish to follow the rules, but I also hope I will find out where I should apply to. If Taiko would be kind enough to reconsider, I would be most grateful, because I feel your expertise (I've read enough on this forum before joining it) would help me. I would be happy to know at this stage because as I said everyone I speak to tells me something different. And as said, if I have unwittingly been offensive I apologise, its borne of frustration, and also feeling like Fire Fox was talking down to me.

Dunroamin

Interista wrote: »

I don't understand why people seem to think I'm being offensive, I'm genuinely not. I will say I'm very frustrated because I'm being shunted around by being told different things by Student Finance Wales, Student Finance European Union, the LEAs, UKCisa, the Welsh Assembly and there doesn't seem to be anyone I can get advice from.
.

Perhaps you should reread your responses to the help offered you?

Fire_Fox

Interista wrote: »

I don't understand why people seem to think I'm being offensive, I'm genuinely not. I will say I'm very frustrated because I'm being shunted around by being told different things by Student Finance Wales, Student Finance European Union, the LEAs, UKCisa, the Welsh Assembly and there doesn't seem to be anyone I can get advice from.

If I have, unwittingly, been offensive to anyone, I apologise. I do really feel that Fire Fox was quite heavy handed with me from his/her first reply, and more so with the second.

And as said, if I have unwittingly been offensive I apologise, its borne of frustration, and also feeling like Fire Fox was talking down to me.

For reference two sentences where you were confrontational
"I suppose you'd say the same if we were separated? ... How long do you envisage it taking me to learn Gaelic from the point of not a word to a point of fluency?"
If they were rhetorical and not in any way personal that was not clear.

And then you poke fun at my use of rhyming slang which is a traditional dialect of our capital city not playground terminology. Despite being from East London I actually opted for the 'softer' term due to to experience of people getting irate and offended by the use of the word lies, even when they (not you) had already intimated a willingness to apply fraudulently.

Try reading my posts with a direct/ straightforward/ blunt/ no nonsense tone instead of imagining something nasty throughout. You might note that I bothered to type two quite lengthy posts and made positive suggestions as to further research (all of which you dismissed in a very negative manner) usually denoting someone supportive not nasty.

Interista

If your intention was to help, I apologise for having become angry. I felt you were talking down to me, and as my avatar shows I'm new so I didn't know you use a blunt approach. Bluntness can appear overly harsh to someone who doesn't know that's your tone. I did find the accusation of lieing offensive, particularly as I have been nothing but honest. I also felt the little laughing smiley was ridiculing. And I do feel that, not on your behalf but on that of the system, there is a discriminatory undertone. It seems ridiculous an 18-year-old can live in Halls and qualify, but a spouse whose family is doing everything to try to move cannot. But that isn't your fault. As said already in this post, and in the previous one, if your intention was to help I am most sorry.

Fire_Fox

Interista wrote: »

If your intention was to help, I apologise for having become angry. I felt you were talking down to me, and as my avatar shows I'm new so I didn't know you use a blunt approach. Bluntness can appear overly harsh to someone who doesn't know that's your tone. I did find the accusation of lieing offensive, particularly as I have been nothing but honest. I also felt the little laughing smiley was ridiculing. And I do feel that, not on your behalf but on that of the system, there is a discriminatory undertone. It seems ridiculous an 18-year-old can live in Halls and qualify, but a spouse whose family is doing everything to try to move cannot. But that isn't your fault. As said already in this post, and in the previous one, if your intention was to help I am most sorry.

Straightforwardness is neutral so only appears rude if you imagine or assume a negative tone, arguably that says more about you than it does about me.

And you are still making assumptions, I accused you of NOTHING I merely advised that you don't be tempted to tell lies - many people don't actually realise it is as serious as fraud. You might find things easier if you stop leaping to conclusions and actually read what people post.