chi running

gleek1

If you are twisting your foot out (pronating) that is activating the peroneals strongly, you want the exact opposite. That makes it easy to locate the muscle but you can't effectively massage nor release trigger points in a consciously tensed muscle. It's not easy to static stretch the peroneals, massage is better have you tried foam rolling or using a massage stick when the leg and foot are fully relaxed? Even if you are sitting in a chair some of the muscles will be activated so you might want to be lying on a bed or mat. Try doing your SMR before a workout not after when everything is tired, tensed and inflamed.[/QUOTE]

Very useful thanks - I do try to relax when doing massage as I don't want to damage further, but I find it so difficult not to tense - I am even like that during a proper massage!

The pernoeals - you have hit the nail on the head- I pronate out to stretch but that does result in cramp. I have always just tried to keep my leg relaxed and straight forward when trying to get at the peroneals - i didn't think of turning foot inwards. I have just done it and I can feel 2 lumps of tension that are much bigger than the rest. i will try to do some release lying down - maybe using a tennis ball so i can do it when i am lying down.

I am a big messy bundle of sore!!! Good to know that someone else sounds equally as bad!! Though not good you are hurting too!

Any hints about hip flexor issue? It's mainly when squatting and doing ab work with feet off the ground that my hip flexors hurt. I can't squat to get quads parallel to ground. Knees and back look good though. Hip flexors at groin def hurt all the time especially sitting - except when i am engaging gluts for some reason. But I was told that the pain could also be psoas too. I also sleep in superman position which might not help with things...

Thanks for all the help so far I do appreciate it - and sorry for hijacking the thread a bit Eletan - but hopefully some of this info will be useful to you to - so you don't get into my situation!!

elantan

I'm from s. Lanarkshire as well

It was Achilles heel in Glasgow I got my shoes from if that helps any ?

gleek1

I've heard good things about them - they are a small locally family owned place - they will not mind you going back with the shoes I am pretty certain - they will want you to have the best run.

Go back and get it checked out again but I am with FFox, I think it is more overuse rather than a shoe issue. I'll pm you where i am from!!

Fire_Fox

gleek1 wrote: »

Eletan - I don't think you are doing everything wrong. And I certainly don't want to discourage you. I just think that if you are hurt so early in the plan then it is imperative that you figure a way to maintain your health.

Where are you? I hear you talking about a corbett. Are you in Scotland? Whereabouts? Maybe I can help regarding good running shops/running groups - or even come out with you sometime to keep the motivation up?

Firefox sounds like she is the real expert - I am just a very keen enthusiast who has a problem with pretty much every muscle group in the lower body and who has forked out too much in physio and massage! But I will help if I can. Firefox - please chip in if you disagree or would like to add anything..!!

First of all the shoes - please ditch the 5 fingers - but I think we have convinced you about that.
Perhaps go to a different running shop to check your shoes are ok. a good running shop will be happy to do this as they know that their honesty will make you come back next time!

Take time to warm up at the start of each run - I don't do this specifically, I am going to be honest - I just take my first mile really slowly. But I think it is important to do so and as you get fitter it will take longer to warm up. A very brisk 5-8 min walk will be good at this stage - get really out of breath at a speed where you think it would be more comfy to run. I had a trainer who recommended doing hip circles and knee circles when warmed up to mobilise the joints. Firefox - is this worth it?

Do your session. The c25K plan is good. Just remember and take rest days. I cannot run more than 3 times a week. No matter how fit I am, when I start running for 4 for a couple of weeks I get hurt. Rest is important. You need a day in between, especialy if you are injury prone. Be conservative and LISTEN TO YOUR BODY. This is the biggest piece of advice as this will keep you right!

As for technique, try not to carry tension in your shoulders - I am very guilty for that at it does hurt and affect your gait sometimes. Don't overstride, but don't force a particular technique - LISTEN TO YOUR BODY and do what feels good!

Try to stretch when you have finished - again, most runners are bad for this. Focus on your hip flexors, your quads, your calves and your shins but if your shoulder are tight from carrying tension then stretch them too

Lots of runners have weak glutes and to be honest, most people do - they don't walk from then bum but walk using the hamstring. This should help activate your backside a bit. Every day do donkey kicks on all 4s 10 kicks each side to begin x3. Then bridge 2 legged bridge to start then one legged bridge. Try to keep core tight and body in a straight line . Try to lift each vertebra up one at at time - peeling off the floor - then same back down in reverse from spine to bottom going on floor. Do 10-15 times.

On one rest day maybe cross train - do something low impact - cycle, climb, swim - something you enjoy. Incorporate some core work here too. I would aim for 2 more core sessions a week. I mentioned them in an earlier post.

Plank, bicycle crunches, leg raises, swimmer, russian twists, push ups there are loads. I do some core every day. Firefox should have some insight, but one thing i find is that doing leg raises Russin twists and the sit ups where you pull your knees up to your chest as you rise, my hip flexors at my groin hurt.. Firefox how do you prevent this? Is this really hip flexors, or psoas, or something else?

Several of the exercises you list are not deep core they are superficial abdominals (esp 'six pack' or rectus abdominis) and hip flexors which you need to avoid activating because it encourages them to be dominant over their opposing muscles the glutes. Also some are contraindicated as they put too much pressure on the spine. The solution is simply not to do those exercises, definitely no leg raises, probably not Russian Twists (there are two exercises described as this) and definitely no sit ups or bicycles. Not sure who taught you these but they are out of date IMO you should be doing true core work - the transverse abdominis (like a giant belt), internal obliques (deep waist), multifidus (teeny tine spine).

Donkey kicks ... depends exactly what you mean and how they are done, bent leg sole to ceiling nope because that encourages tight and dominant hamstrings. Straight leg bird-dog AKA four points kneeling yes, IF done with a really stable spine and hips (absolutely needs strict teaching). Most people use their back far more than the glutes and lift the leg far too high you really want to almost slide the toe along the floor and lift the foot no more than a few inches. Bent leg back bridge ... yes, IF you don't have hamstring dominance and with correct technique (consciously activating the glutes first). Straight leg back bridge on a Swiss ball is more appropriate if you have hamstring dominance and no back issues.

You can train for balance and stability daily but not core strength, all muscles need rest and the abs and back are no exception. The psoas is one of the hip flexors so not sure what you mean there? I can't tell you online which muscle is causing you problems, you need a professional diagnosis for that - physiotherapist ideally. If squats hurt try static lunges they are arguably a better exercise for many anyway. When you engage one muscle it's opposite automatically switches off, so you tense the glutes and your hip flexors relax (= don't hurt), that makes complete sense. You *may* simply be overtraining the hip flexors with all the 'core' work you are doing, stop all the exercise that work that muscle group and stop the daily assault .... let it heal.

In his book 'Low Back Disorders' (Human Kinetics) Dr. Stuart McGill recommends just three basic matwork exercises for back health and core stability. The bird-dog, a specific variant of the ab curl with one leg straight to knock out the hip flexors, and the side lying elbow plank - all with progressions. I don't recommend purchasing it, that is a hardcore dry scientific textbook!
http://www.backfitpro.com/pdf/selecting_back_exercises.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WaBfk0vgJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG85gXBiAmI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kukmaW9CmSU
There are other Stuart McGill entries on YouTube that might be worth exploring although I have to say I don't like how he teaches, he lets her back dip!

Fire_Fox

elantan wrote: »

i do do this,with my right foot, i have always put it down to my right leg being longer than my left leg, i do this even when i am walking, is there a way i can correct this? is it a case of concentrating and watching what i am doing ?

Do you have one leg longer than the other, is that from a professional diagnosis? If so you are likely not well suited to running and there is nothing can be done more than strengthening all the deepest core stability muscles, releasing any knots and praying.

If you overpronate one side more than the other you may benefit from more SMR on that side and possibly some targeted strengthening exercises, you may need custom orthoses (shoe insert) from a podiatrist. It may be one foot needs only a supportive shoe and the other needs full motion control which is obviously impossible with off the shelf footwear. But I would have though the running shop would have mentioned this when they video'd you if they didn't correct your gait issues well.

gleek1

Wow - thanks for all that info.

So much i didn't know there. I thought that psoas was a separate muscle than the hip flexors - my most recent physio - who I must say I was not that thrilled with - said that it wasn't really my hips that was the problem but psoas.

The donkey kicks and bridge I was given by a physio a long time ago - I don't keep my sole to the ceiling - i kick out behind me keeping back in neutral and everything else really really still. I am supposed to progress to raising the opposite hand, but my form sucks on that so I dont!! The bridge again - yeah I do have hamstring dominance, but I do actively use the glutes for this, and tbh though it sounds so lame I totally find it tough to do more than 10 slowly at a time.

I have found that when I squat, I don't tend to finish the squat properly. I have found that it helps to kind of thrust the pelvis out at the end of the movement - but that could be just masking the problem.

The other exercises are ones that I have been taught by several personal trainers over the years and I have done them at some pilates courses as well over the years - didn't realise they were outdated and actually potentially doing harm....The Russian twists I am talking about are where you are sitting and raise your feet and then bring your hands from one side to the other.

I will check out your links for deep core. I hate it when people don't pick up on the back droop or bum raise. It's is rubbish when you collapse on the floor more quickly than everyone else when planking and you see all the backsides in the air..!!

Thank you so much for the advice. I will continue to do the stability stuff - but will ease up on the superficial core till things loosen off a bit.

Guess I should pay attention to my LISTEN TO YOUR BODY mantra :embarasse!!

elantan

sorry all cross posted on my phone there , still on my phone so will catch up tomorrow when i can fully take in what you are saying, thanks again very much for your help i really do appreciate it ... will look at the sport one firefox ... dont think i am quite ready for the one for the man

Fire_Fox

gleek1 wrote: »

Wow - thanks for all that info.

So much i didn't know there. I thought that psoas was a separate muscle than the hip flexors - my most recent physio - who I must say I was not that thrilled with - said that it wasn't really my hips that was the problem but psoas.

The donkey kicks and bridge I was given by a physio a long time ago - I don't keep my sole to the ceiling - i kick out behind me keeping back in neutral and everything else really really still. I am supposed to progress to raising the opposite hand, but my form sucks on that so I dont!! The bridge again - yeah I do have hamstring dominance, but I do actively use the glutes for this, and tbh though it sounds so lame I totally find it tough to do more than 10 slowly at a time.

I have found that when I squat, I don't tend to finish the squat properly. I have found that it helps to kind of thrust the pelvis out at the end of the movement - but that could be just masking the problem.

The other exercises are ones that I have been taught by several personal trainers over the years and I have done them at some pilates courses as well over the years - didn't realise they were outdated and actually potentially doing harm....The Russian twists I am talking about are where you are sitting and raise your feet and then bring your hands from one side to the other.

I will check out your links for deep core. I hate it when people don't pick up on the back droop or bum raise. It's is rubbish when you collapse on the floor more quickly than everyone else when planking and you see all the backsides in the air..!!

I'm OCD with clients, all over them with correction be that one to one or group. I was lucky and found two amazing group exercise instructors when I first stated exercising, one was totally into technique/ posture who jollied you through tough sessions and the other a sadist and I picked up elements of both.

If you can't do a good arm and leg raise by now something may be wrong with how you engage and hold the transversus. Maybe when you add in the arm go back a level with the leg, just slowly slide the toe lightly along the floor so you have a *little* help with the balance. Really don't worry about going high with arm or leg, the second the weight is off the floor the muscles are taking the strain and a leg is a heavy little beastie. No kicking or jerking, it's supposed to be a controlled move. Also consider standing balance training - standing Pilates, foam roller work or Swiss ball (kneeling on it is my personal favourite) as you see fit. Shutting your eyes when doing any balance or stability work is a great progression, just be safe.

It took me a lot of Pilates classes to 'get' core activation/ control and I had to drop all the crunches and the like. I'd spent so long working the superficial muscles with my abs domed there was total dominance, the instructor kept telling me I was doing it completely wrong and to drop back to the remedial level which was incredibly frustrating for someone supposedly fit.

But she was right and it taught me a great lesson I brought with me to my work practice. The thing is with Pilates it's fine to feel virtually nothing yet it requires concentration, which is the opposite of what we do in standard ab work. Some of the muscles you are trying to activate and strengthen are tiny, they will never be able to scream at your brain.

Things have changed a lot in the last ten years or so with core stability, there was a series of studies (EMG analysis?) where sports scientists/ biomechanics dudes stuck needles into muscles and measured the pressure during formal exercise and normal everyday movements. That way they learned which muscles where being activated and how much and at what point, which turned things on their head a bit.

Turned out many of the traditional gym abs exercises put unacceptable levels of stress on the spine, or worked the hip flexors far more than the abdominals. :eek: They also learned that those who are healthy/ never injured switch our core muscles on milliseconds BEFORE we start to move, but some of those with old injuries or caesarian sections switch on milliseconds AFTER we start to move the limbs which leaves us vulnerable.

elantan

gleek1 wrote: »

Don't run tonight if you are sore at all - please don't it is not worth it. Do some core work instead - that can get your remarkably out of breath. No running, no jumping till you are pain free. It will only get worse - that I can promise you!!

Where did you get your shoes? I have had very very mixed experiences with Run4It in all their stores I haven't been, but I have heard very very good things about Achillies heel.

I work in Edinburgh and am from S Lanarkshire. Will pm you the town later. My running shop is is Edinburgh - footworks at snowlines. They are into bf running too, but they are very responsible and knowledgeable. I have physio in-law who works at a hospital in Glasgow but he does private practice in the evenings. I can pm you their details. I have seen him once and they are good - I wouldn't just say that - they run are quite conservative in their treatment - i.e. lots of exercises!!!

I can recommend loads of places in Fife and Ed for physio/massage if you are willing to travel:-)

unfortunatley i didnt see this message until after i had ran, taught me a lesson though, i was fine until the second minute of running, then i started feeling the pain in my shin, i carried on till i was finished but will be taking the friday of running off, possibly next week as well as i dont want to carry on and permanatley injure myself,

listening to my body though got very confusing :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: ... my shins were saying stop, my head was going oh yeah this is good i'm having fun, and my heart and lungs were going ... hey run some more just add another 30 seconds on you'll be fine, it was like a battle i can assure you.

i chose to try to listen to all, myhead wanted to run so i did my heart wanted to run extra so i did about 2 seconds extra and my legs wanted to stop so i didnt add any minutes on or run fast etc

the pain is still in my left leg, still at the side, i noticed when i come down on the treadmill my left side is heavier which would explain why this one is more painful than the other

i am wearing the compression socks again today and will wear them for the next few days till the pain fully goes away

so tonight i need to work on some core work, any suggestions of a routine?

elantan

Fire_Fox wrote: »

Yes of course. Oooh they have another level since I last ordered. You just want the basic ('Sport') which was originally in red it's plenty intense enough. The all black is evil, really for men and very strong women. You will want a DVD or two tho, so this is probably not the best source, it's all changed grrrr wonder if Rebecca and Steve have gone back to Oz.
http://www.sport-thieme.co.uk/Fitness/Schwingstab_Flexi-Bar_XCO/art=2009908

You used to be able to get Training Plan 1 free with a bar, worth checking Amazon and eBay. Looks like there are second hand DVDs on Amazon for cheap and second hand bars with DVD on eBay. Ask where they got it: if they say Ideal World shopping channel and they have the proper DVD there is every chance it's not a knock off. Most of the knock offs look slightly different anyway AFAIK they are imitations not out and out fakes.

i tried to order it today but it wouldnt work, have to admit in a way i am glad it didnt work as it looks like a slightly dodgy site

will look elsewhere though