Private Estate Parking Charge

dickymoore

Hello all

I was wondering if any of you have had any success in appealing a parking charge from parking in a private council estate?

I have parked my car in the private car park of the estate I live in for over 3 years, and have purchased permits over the last 3 years to enable me to do so.

However a couple of weeks ago the permit ran out and I didn't realise this because a) I haven't used my car in over a month b) there is no service provided by the estate management company which reminds us to renew our permit (and there's another reason - a newborn baby keeping us occupied!)

I think this is unfair as we have parked in the same spot for 3 years, and have paid for the permit every year with no objection or fuss. If we had been reminded to pay for the permit we would have done so immediately. Likewise if there was an automatic service which debited our bank account to pay for it I would be keen to sign up to it. But Hackney Homes, the management company, seem to think that a penalty charge ticket is an adequate and fair reminder!

Also, the process of getting a new permit is longwinded and fiddly and due to work commitments I won't have time to do this until Monday. Are Hackney Homes likely to give me a ticket every day between now and Monday?

Has anyone had a similar experience and if so what happened? Would it be reasonable to try and appeal this?

ManxRed

See what others say, but this sounds like a Council-Acting-As-A-PPC to me.

It might help to see the ticket, could you photo or scan it and post up a link? You need to remove the http:// bit from the link as you are a newbie.

Guys_Dad

Fro their web site:-

Hackney Homes was launched in April 2006 and is responsible for managing council homes in Hackney. This also includes managing council housing, collecting council housing rental, repairing and maintaining council homes.
We are a not-for-profit organisation which means we are focused on providing services to the community. The Council will continue to be involved in housing and is committed to the strategic management of social housing. Your rights as tenants have not changed and the council will continue to own your homes and flats.
Our organisation is an arm's length management company (ALMO)- a model that has been successfully adopted by a number of other leading local authorities to improve housing and service to the community.

There is a further section on Parking Control.

So it's a little bit trickier than a normal Private Residential Car Park as Hackney Homes could be a joint venture between the council and an outsourced company that handles the full estate management for the council.

Your rent /service charge record will show that you have paid rental for the space.

The_Slithy_Tove

Guys_Dad wrote: »

So it's a little bit trickier than a normal Private Residential Car Park as Hackney Homes could be a joint venture between the council and an outsourced company that handles the full estate management for the council.

Not really. If it's not a Penalty Charge Notice issued under the relevant Traffic legislation with a TRO to back it up, then it's a private ticket under contract/trespass law, whether the landholder is a public or private body.

Easier to tell if we see the actual letter (suitably redacted of personal details).

ManxRed

ALMO = Private Parking = PPC.

But better to see the ticket, just to make sure.

dickymoore

Hey everyone

Firstly, thanks for taking an interest and for your help with this. It's been a real comfort to know that people have gathered around to show sympathy for us here, both our local neighbours and strangers on the internet such as yourselves. It helps a lot, as it's not nice being fined like this, when you try your best to do the right things in society. So thank you, it's much appreciated.

I got home from work to see the ticket and it looks like it's issued by Hackney Council. So it looks like it's Hackney Council traffic wardens that issue the tickets even though it's Hackney Homes that issue the permits.

Here is a copy of the ticket:

I don't know if this is a point that can be argued, but it say the contravention is: "Parked in a permit bay without clearly displaying a valid permit". However, at the time of parking, the permit WAS valid. I guess the question here is whether "parked" refers to the act of parking or the position of the car as "parked". Even if that argument could wash, I would have to prove that I haven't moved the car since then (and funnily enough I DO have photos of the car from that time - due to taking photos of a nice sunset and the colour of the light falling on the car) but anyway, I think I'm probably more likely to park in cloud cuckoo land than having this line of argument succeed.

But if there's any ideas you have I'd be really grateful to see them. The money to pay for this will be quite hard to find but I also just feel so upset that we're being punished for something when we try so hard to stay within laws and regulations.

Thanks

Coupon-mad

http://cdn-i.imageox.com/2013/02/07/4b1fa236cc2f.jpeg

That's odd...it's a real PCN from the Council (Hackney) which I was not expecting to see!

Best advice would be to take this as a new query for pepipoo forums, post a new topic here:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

Include a copy of that PCN (front AND back please) and a picture of the bays and a close up of the nearest sign(s) because from your description it sounded like a private car park, as most of these Housing Associations have - and yet you got a real PCN which you cannot ignore and must appeal (or pay).

Ask pepipoo for advice as most people can win most PCNs on appeal with that forum's help!

dickymoore

That's great. I've started a thread as advised. Thanks so much for your help.

Guys_Dad

The_Slithy_Tove wrote: »

Not really. If it's not a Penalty Charge Notice issued under the relevant Traffic legislation with a TRO to back it up, then it's a private ticket under contract/trespass law, whether the landholder is a public or private body.

Easier to tell if we see the actual letter (suitably redacted of personal details).

As Dickymoore has just written "I got home from work to see the ticket and it looks like it's issued by Hackney Council. So it looks like it's Hackney Council traffic wardens that issue the tickets even though it's Hackney Homes that issue the permits."

That's why I said "So it's a little bit trickier than a normal Private Residential Car Park as Hackney Homes could be a joint venture between the council and an outsourced company".

But the silver lining is that the council has proof that the space was paid for by OP, so it is the "technical rules" that is the basis of argument that pepipoo can help on.

ManxRed

OK, I would be asking to see the Traffic Regulation Order relating to the land on which you were parked.

We have seen incidences before where clamping and towing has occurred from Councils on Private Council Estates under the auspices of it being a council tow, but it later transpired that it was private, and the council were being naughty by trying to dress it up as a council tow, when they were actually acting as a PPC.

This might be similar.

As advised, go to Pepipoo, and in the meantime ask the council for the TRO - its a public document and they have to make it available for public viewing.

spacey2012

Agree above, demand the traffic regulation order or off street parking places order is made available and check it covers that area.