Notice to end tenancy - addressed to the letting agent

franklee

Dreddnarz, I've just spotted your other thread, really it's best to have all the information in one place or people duplicate themselves or make wrong suggestions as all the information isn't apparent in one thread.

Anyway as your deposit wasn't protected you can sue for up to 3 times the deposit as a penalty, so that puts the agent on the back foot. They might just keep your deposit and hope you don't bother. I'd be doing as Shelter said to you in that thread.

Now I realise your dates it maybe (if we are being really picky) that you didn't give your notice a the right time. On landlordzone I've read some of the regulars saying that a tenant cannot serve notice to end the tenancy one period after the end of the fixed term as if the tenant waits for a periodic tenancy to arise and then serves notice it'd be to late. I doubt an agent would spot that in reality if you served notice during the fixed term. However your dates are a bit odd as your fixed term dates fall a day short and there is that midday confusion. As the confusion was caused by the agent I'd hope the benefit of the doubt would go in your favour.

Also odd is that the rent is specified on a yearly basis. Do you pay rent monthly, does the tenancy agreement say rent is due monthly? That would determine what your period is.

As you may want to write setting out why you think the notice is a period quoting the following legislation:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/section/5

Extract:

"(2) If an assured tenancy which is a fixed term tenancy comes to an end otherwise than by virtue of—

(a) an order of the court, or

(b) a surrender or other action on the part of the tenant,

then, subject to section 7 and Chapter II below, the tenant shall be entitled to remain in possession of the dwelling-house let under that tenancy and, subject to subsection (4) below, his right to possession shall depend upon a periodic tenancy arising by virtue of this section.

(3) The periodic tenancy referred to in subsection (2) above is one—

(a) taking effect in possession immediately on the coming to an end of the fixed term tenancy;

(b) deemed to have been granted by the person who was the landlord under the fixed term tenancy immediately before it came to an end to the person who was then the tenant under that tenancy;

(c) under which the premises which are let are the same dwelling-house as was let under the fixed term tenancy;

(d) under which the periods of the tenancy are the same as those for which rent was last payable under the fixed term tenancy; and

(e) under which, subject to the following provisions of this Part of this Act, the other terms are the same as those of the fixed term tenancy immediately before it came to an end, except that any term which makes provision for determination by the landlord or the tenant shall not have effect while the tenancy remains an assured tenancy."

In particular that last paragraph, except that any term ... note the not!

In the end you may be forced to take court action, if so then your being polite in written communications and the agent being a plank will count in your favour so keep all the evidence of that. You should also write and ask for your landlord's address while you are still a tenant (see here, http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=56610049&postcount=16). It may be your landlord isn't a plank like the agent and it's him you will be suing.

G_M

Dreddnarz wrote: »

The first page states:

"TERM:
Twelve Months
FROM:
1200 Midday on 5th February 2012
TO:
12:00 Midday on 4th February 2013
13,520 (Thirteen thousand, five hundred and twenty
Pounds) clear of all deductions for the duration of the
term."

The only thing close to what you ask is as follows:

"• Should the Tenant and Landlord enter into the agreement to extend or create a new Tenancy for a further term (the term being the period of one year less one day) such extension/ new Tenancy will contain all the like Obligations and provisions as herein contained."

Well this seems to answer the proble that was raised earlier in the thread. Since the clause refers to a 'further term' ..'of one year less one day" then clearly that would apply to the original term too.

The dates are correct, but the description of the Term as "12 months" is an error.

franklee

sarah_barker wrote: »

Our AST (one months written notice) states that if the tenant fails to renew the tenancy then it will fall onto a periodic tenancy in which both the tenant and the landlord are required to give two months notice of their desire to end the tenancy. Surely a periodic tenancy cannot supersede the AST in terms of increased notice...

The question is are you on a statutory periodic tenancy or a contractual periodic tenancy? Your post implies it might be the tenancy agreement makes a contractual periodic tenancy arise after the fixed term but as said before that depends on the terms in your tenancy agreement which you haven't posted although I suggested you post the relevant terms yesterday.

If it's a contractual periodic tenancy then you could go on to argue that the requirement for longer notice is unfair. It's unclear if that would work. There's a similar question on the landlord law blog here: http://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2012/11/21/contractual-periodic-tenancy-question/

franklee

sarah_barker wrote: »

Our AST (one months written notice) states that if the tenant fails to renew the tenancy then it will fall onto a periodic tenancy in which both the tenant and the landlord are required to give two months notice of their desire to end the tenancy. Surely a periodic tenancy cannot supersede the AST in terms of increased notice...

See also:
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?36693-Periodic-Monthly-Contract-with-2-Months-Notice-Period
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?36744-Enforcing-2-month-notice-period-for-tenant

sarah_barker

franklee wrote: »

See also:
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?36693-Periodic-Monthly-Contract-with-2-Months-Notice-Period
http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?36744-Enforcing-2-month-notice-period-for-tenant

Thanks for the links, my instinct is that we are probably in a CPT. I will get the details from the tenancy when I get home. To expect 2 months notice is ridiculous and unfair in my opinion, it makes it nigh impossible to move on and is probably the reason why they do it! A CPT does not appear to be widely recognised however and one would assume that statue would supersede contract on any day of the week. Bring in some bloody regulation!

franklee

sarah_barker wrote: »

Thanks for the links, my instinct is that we are probably in a CPT. I will get the details from the tenancy when I get home. To expect 2 months notice is ridiculous and unfair in my opinion, it makes it nigh impossible to move on and is probably the reason why they do it! A CPT does not appear to be widely recognised however and one would assume that statue would supersede contract on any day of the week. Bring in some bloody regulation!

One of the big letting agents round here has this sort of thing in their AST which is why I won't use them. An extra months notice is really tough when competing against tenants on one month who can move in to the property you want quicker.

As I said you could try arguing it's unfair along the lines in the landlord law blog post I linked to above. If your deposit is protected I'd dispute any deduction for the extra rent putting your argument to them and let them adjudicate. It may well not go your way but it's worth a shot and at least you'd know you did your best.

theartfullodger

So you rent was paid in one lump for the whole year? How does it say rent is payable after that year?

sarah_barker

franklee wrote: »

One of the big letting agents round here has this sort of thing in their AST which is why I won't use them. An extra months notice is really tough when competing against tenants on one month who can move in to the property you want quicker.

As I said you could try arguing it's unfair along the lines in the landlord law blog post I linked to above. If your deposit is protected I'd dispute any deduction for the extra rent putting your argument to them and let them adjudicate. It may well not go your way but it's worth a shot and at least you'd know you did your best.

If it gets to that point, I will certainly try...I'm not one for just giving up!

I have the AST agreement now...there are two points referencing the notice period.



'The first schedule' * asterix denotes special conditions

* 11. If you decide to vacate at the end of your 6 months fixed term, a minimum one months written notice is required. After the initial fixed term, tenants are required to give two months written notice, failure to do so will result in deposit being retained in lieu of notice

27. Notice to vacate the property

One months written notice is applicable should either party choose not to renew at the end of the fixed term agreement

If the tenant decides not to renew their current tenancy after the initial 6 month fixed term, they will automatically be entered into a periodic agreement. This means that both parties are required to submit 2 months written notice prior to ending the agreement. Again, notice will only be effective from the next payment date regardless of when it was received.


Any thoughts?

rpc

That does not IMHO create a contractual perdiodic tenancy. It is a term whch, on the first day after the fixed term, does not apply as the SPT arises. Any terms of the original contract that relate to determination cease to have effect - including this one.

To form a contractual tenancy, it would have to define the tenancy, the period, etc and it does not.

The requirement for one month's notice at the end of the fixed term is equally unenforceable.

franklee

rpc wrote: »

That does not IMHO create a contractual perdiodic tenancy. It is a term whch, on the first day after the fixed term, does not apply as the SPT arises. Any terms of the original contract that relate to determination cease to have effect - including this one.

To form a contractual tenancy, it would have to define the tenancy, the period, etc and it does not.

I'm not so sure as it's similar to this term they were discussing on landlordzone (links in above posts) which they concluded does cause a contractual periodic tenancy to arise and thus not a SPT:
"If neither the Landlord nor the Tenant gives notice then on the expiry of the fixed term the tenancy shall become a Periodic Tenancy and in such case two months notice (coinciding with a rental date) by either side will be required to terminate it" See the landlordzone links above.

sarah_barker's term is similar:
"If the tenant decides not to renew their current tenancy after the initial 6 month fixed term, they will automatically be entered into a periodic agreement. This means that both parties are required to submit 2 months written notice prior to ending the agreement. Again, notice will only be effective from the next payment date regardless of when it was received."

sarah_barker, You could ask on landlordzone, they answer questions from tenants equally well as from landlords. Link back to the other two threads and post those terms from your AST agreement. I would say it's going to be down to the adjudicator on the day as I would certainly dispute it.