No WILL left ... Help please !

zzzLazyDaisy

RAS wrote: »

If it is joint tenants, your uncle and aunt both owned 100% of the house jointly and severally. He now owns 100% of the hose solely as the survivor. That would mean that the house is not included in your aunts estate. Ditto is the house is in his name

Although it is true that a house held in joint names (as joint tenants) passes automatically to the survivor and does not pass through the will or intestacy, it is not as simple as that when the deceased leaves unpaid debts. Since 2001, creditors can apply to have the joint tenancy severed and the debts discharged from the deceased's share of the house.

The first thing to do is to check how the house is held. You can do this on-line at the land registry site. It was very common back in the day, for the husband to buy the house in his sole name, so if they have lived there a long time, that may still be the case - but there is no point in guessing.

EDIT - cross posted.

zzzLazyDaisy

You might find this site useful for information

http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/debt_factsheets/what_to_do_about_debt_when_someone_dies.php


Note: I don't have any personal knowledge of the site, I just found it on google, but as your aunt appears to have left more debts than money, it is likely that this is an insolvent estate.

Edit - okay for some reason the site has been blanked out?

The relevant legislation is the Insolvency Act 1986 section 421A which came into effect on 2 April 2001, I will try and get a simple summary of the implications.

zzzLazyDaisy

Sorry, I have had a good look round but there is no such thing as a 'simple' summary... it is a complicated situation.

But put as simply as possible....

Someone needs to find out as much as possible about her debts and contact the creditors. I suggest that whoever does this makes it clear that they are NOT administering the estate, but merely trying to help the surviving spouse of the deceased (see note below about the duties of personal representatives). The creditors are entitled to be paid, and although a house in joint names does pass to the survivor, the creditors may apply for an order which in effect turns the ownership into a tenancy in common and so makes her 'share' of the house legally available to pay the debts. If they intend to do this, they must apply for the order within 5 years of the death.

But there are also responsibilities on the personal representatives of a deceased estate, which can make those people personally liable for the debts of the deceased person if they do not administer the estate correctly. For that reason, people are generally advised to refuse to administer an insolvent estate (being s PR is a voluntary task, not a legal obligation).

I suggest that you seek legal advice, even if it is only a half hour free consultation (if solicitors still do this).

There is some information here

http://www.stepjournal.org/journal_archive/2011/step_journal_june_july_2011_fi/insolvent_estates.aspx

RAS

crystal_clear wrote: »

It appears reading further down that there are 2 seperate intrim charging orders on the register in my aunts name one in 2006 and the other in 2008 ............ What on earth do i do with them I have no idea if regular payments were made what balances still owing at this time and I also dont know how i move forward in respect of changing deeds to show uncle as sole owner or is this not required ??

as there intrim charging orders can i help him have them removed if so any help how to go about that would be welcomed.

crystalclear

You need to speak to one of the debt charities because these are interim not final.

Also read this thread https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/1839539 about dealing with final charging orders on joint tenancies.

crystal_clear

Thank you RAS i did read the link posted and note that if they had been trying to sell the house the restriction with intrim charging order technically would have dropped off if the creditor was notified in time before completion of sale butnot in enough time to slap on a final charging order.

That said I am still trying to find out if informing land registry of the death will change name to uncle only and they will again drop off or if they need to be notified as per the link u posted and if that again will prompt them to get a final order.... i am at a loss as to how best sort this out... and a little confused as to where to go from here to get the correct info so as to not make matters worse for him.

crystalclear

Land_Registry

Registering your aunt's death will not cause the charging orders to 'drop off' the title. Her name will normally just be removed from the register.

From a legal title perspective the interim charging orders have been registered. They may have already been made absolute as it is rare for the beneficiary to register the final order either as an additional entry on the register or by removing the interim one and registering the absolute - they are after all protecting the same interest.

How an interim or absolute impact from a wider perspective i.e. enforcement, next steps etc I am afraid I cannot comment but this may be something you need to discuss with a legal advisor once you have established the details and status of the orders themselves.

getmore4less

This is going to need legal advice.

In the mean time it might be best to only invesigate and not take any actions, till you know what is going on.

Some things once done cannot be undone.

eg (this is a guess) if changing to a single name might cause an issue and alert a creditor it might be better to wait untill the place needs to be sold so process in the link that RAS gave does remove the charges and make it impossible/very diffficult for the creditors to take action.

dzug1

crystal_clear wrote: »

no mention of joint tenancy or tenants in common only registered owners as i stated previously both names on deeds

crystalclear

That's not how you tell:

if you are tenants in common the register will also have the wording "No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered unless authorised by an order of the court". If there is no such wording in the title document then you are almost certainly a joint tenant.

crystal_clear

dzug1 wrote: »

That's not how you tell:

if you are tenants in common the register will also have the wording "No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered unless authorised by an order of the court". If there is no such wording in the title document then you are almost certainly a joint tenant.

There is no such wording in the deeds THISIS EXTRACT EDITED only to take out personal ifnf with *****

B: Proprietorship Register
This register specifies the class of title and
identifies the owner. It contains any entries that
affect the right of disposal.
Title absolute
1 (***1982) PROPRIETOR: UNCLE and AUNT of
THERE ADDRESS.
2 (****2006) RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate
is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant
for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the
disposition was given to Hillesden Securities Ltd (Masterloan) at
Buckingham Road, Brackley, Northants NN13 7DN being the person
with the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial
interest of ******** on **** 2006 (Court reference ******)(a/c ref:
*****).
3 (****.2008) RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate
is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant
for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the
disposition was given to Cabot Financial (UK) Limited at PO Box
250 West Malling, Kent ME19 4LT being the person with the benefit
of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of **** in 2008 (Ref:-
*******).


I have also searched online courts info and noted the restriction of part 3 above listed the month before the land registry and nothing after. So I sum that up to mean in the case of part 3 they only ever registed an intrerim charge order and not a final.

As for Part 2 above the search didnt show up as thats just over 6 years but i woulkd have thought it to be either settled or still as an interim charge order ......... i will attempt to find this info tomorrow from the county court payments office as thats the most likely place to still have something on record after 6 years without actually approaching said companies at this time until i know howthey are likely to proceed on news of death.

crystalclear

crystal_clear

Land_Registry_representative wrote: »

As it is registered in their joint names you should refer to our FAQ re what to do when a property owner dies. There is no automatic process for updating the register and whilst it is not compulsory to do anything it is a simple application with no fee attached.

As far as the charging orders are concerned other posters are likely to be better placed to advise as to how to find out more details. I would though expect the entries to refer to particulars of the court, the date of the order, the full court reference and the parties involved. Contacting the court(s) for more details might be an option although who they will reveal that information to I am not sure and it may be that you need some form of proof re who is authorised to deal with her estate etc?

As others have suggested you may need to do some more 'digging' to ascertain what monies may be outstanding as well as whether her death has impacted on the debts in some way.

Removing the entries is again quite simple procedurally - see our Practice Guide 19 section 3.8 but the application will have to include sufficient evidence that the protected interest has come to an end. If your aunt's death has not impacted on the matter then you are likely to be dependant on those with the benefit of the charging orders to release them.

As I say others will have more knowledge on such things although I would recommend that you/your Uncle get some legal advice as well.

After many phone calls I have made today I think I am possibly getting somewhere nearer clearing this up. Dont need to go into probate or letter of administration. Just need to write enclosing death cert to both companies holding the restrictions to inform them of Aunts death and requesting details ..... they should then reply to acknowledge receipt of death cert along with either a letter stating files amended to show they are no longer enforceable or worst case senario that they did get final charging orders (i personally think the 1st would be the case) then i can forward that to land registry along with death cert to prove the restrictions have been complied with and hope i am correct in what i am told the land registry should be satisfied enough update deeds and cleanly award the sole ownership to Uncle as would have been the case should Aunt never have had any restrictions placed in the 1st case ......
please correct me if i am in anyway wrong Land registry and also would Uncle need to file a form of any sort along with the proofs above i mentioned ?

crystalclear