Residential care & possible deprivation of assets

Madmel

People on here were very helpful 18 months ago when I posted about my MiL so I am hoping for similar this time.

Mother in law is 88 and currently in hospital following a fall at home. She lives in a development like McCarthy & Stone where she has her own apartment and there is a manager on site. There is a lounge and laundry for residents to use. Around 15 years ago, a lawyer advised her to sign over her property at the time to my DH. Mostly this was due to her other son being severely mentally handicapped and living in residential care. She pays him a peppercorn rent. 11 years ago, it was impractical having her in Yorkshire & us in Devon, so she & DH sold the house and used the equity to purchase her apartment. Sadly there was not enough money from this, so DH used his savings. There was still not enough [Yorkshire was yet to enjoy the housing boom] so I put in over £30k from a legacy so we could buy the place. DH & I own it outright, 2/3 to 1/3.

Now we think next week's meeting of Health professionals may suggest residential care. 18 months ago she was dead against it but is coming round to the idea. She lied to them saying how much DH did for her, but it has been evident she has been struggling. She has two 30 minute care visits per day for personal care for which she pays a modest contribution, and a free hot meal delivered every lunchtime.

My questions are:
Would her signing the house over to DH in 1996 or 1997 be classed as deprivation of assets? We were told at the time that she only needed to live for 7 years more for there being no liability.
Would Social Services be likely to recommend residential/nursing care? She now needs to Healthcare assistants to help her to stand up and has been on oxygen 24/7 for the last 5 days.
How much would it cost roughly? Would we be expected to pay for this?

Thanks in advance and apologies for any missing detail. I typed it all before and it got lost

BitterAndTwisted

The seven-year limit is to do with inheritance tax, not deprivation of assets. I'm not certain about how your local authority would view your having purchased this property with some of your mother's money so long ago. Have you had a read of the AgeUK website for guidance?

Madmel

Thanks B&T. I'll look there now. They were singularly unhelpful 10+ years ago but hopefully things have changed.

Torry_Quine

Madmel wrote: »

People on here were very helpful 18 months ago when I posted about my MiL so I am hoping for similar this time.

Mother in law is 88 and currently in hospital following a fall at home. She lives in a development like McCarthy & Stone where she has her own apartment and there is a manager on site. There is a lounge and laundry for residents to use. Around 15 years ago, a lawyer advised her to sign over her property at the time to my DH. Mostly this was due to her other son being severely mentally handicapped and living in residential care. She pays him a peppercorn rent. 11 years ago, it was impractical having her in Yorkshire & us in Devon, so she & DH sold the house and used the equity to purchase her apartment. Sadly there was not enough money from this, so DH used his savings. There was still not enough [Yorkshire was yet to enjoy the housing boom] so I put in over £30k from a legacy so we could buy the place. DH & I own it outright, 2/3 to 1/3.

Now we think next week's meeting of Health professionals may suggest residential care. 18 months ago she was dead against it but is coming round to the idea. She lied to them saying how much DH did for her, but it has been evident she has been struggling. She has two 30 minute care visits per day for personal care for which she pays a modest contribution, and a free hot meal delivered every lunchtime.

My questions are:
Would her signing the house over to DH in 1996 or 1997 be classed as deprivation of assets? We were told at the time that she only needed to live for 7 years more for there being no liability.
Would Social Services be likely to recommend residential/nursing care? She now needs to Healthcare assistants to help her to stand up and has been on oxygen 24/7 for the last 5 days.
How much would it cost roughly? Would we be expected to pay for this?

Thanks in advance and apologies for any missing detail. I typed it all before and it got lost

sorry to hear this but moving into a care home may be the best thing for her. If she is on oxygen then it will most likely be a home with nursing care.

As said the 7 years is for IHT, there is no time limit for deprivation of assets although obviously the longer time the better as the criteria is that the home was signed away to prevent having to pay for care. What was her health like than as if she was in good health the expectation of needing care was less so harder to show that she signed it over to avoid care fees.

You won't be expected to pay anything. If she has assets over £23,500 then she will be expected to pay the full amount. Less than Approx £13,000 she keeps and between these figures there is a sliding scale. If her savings are less than the loser amount her pension will be paid to the home less about £23 per week for personal spending money. If she is sel-funding then she would still be able to keep her AA, if she gets it.

Madmel

Things have changed since Sunday...

MiL is now back in the main hospital. They originally said it was pneumonia, but now think it's an allergic reaction which has caused an asthma-like episode. She is now confined to bed and is still on oxygen. The OT appointment which should have been today to assess her flat has been postponed indefinitely.

To answer Torey's question, MiL was in reasonable health when she signed the house over. She walked with a stick [but don't quite a few people in their 70s?]. The fact that she managed without any sort of care package until 18 months ago, so at least 14 years, should count in her/our favour. I have read the following leaflet
http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/EN-GB/Factsheets/FS40_deprivation_of_assets_in_the_means_test_for_care_home_provision_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true
Thanks for the suggestion B&T and as the transfer took place a number of years ago and we can demonstrate a prime reason that was NOT deprivation of assets, it looks like it won't be a problem [Madmel crosses her fingers tightly].

Given the recent turn of events and her rapidly declining health this week, I don't think it will be an issue as if she does leave hospital, she will almost certainly require nursing care.

Thanks to both of you for your help and I hope that the information here is of use to someone else.

NAR

Madmel sorry to hear of MIL's worsening condition.
But to give my tuppence worth on Deprivation of Assets question. You had sound reasons for purchasing her house 16 years ago, which were nothing to do with DoA. The fact that she has remained in reasonable health in the intervening period demonstrates that DoV was not your reason for buying the house. So I cannot see how any council could consider your actions as DoV.

pinkshoes

I think you could argue that you and your OH purchased the property, as in the long run, it has allowed you to look after your MIL. Her contribution to the house was her way of paying to have her family look after her in an area that was more expensive than where she previously lived, and not deprivation of assets.

How much was her share 15 years ago?

Amanda65

Try The Relatives and Residents Assoc - they can offer great advice and support.

http://www.relres.org/

Errata

HTH If your MIL was as fit as a flea when she signed the property over to your OH 15 years ago, then I feel the local authority would find it very difficult to argue Deprivation of Assets. Should they attempt to do so, then it may be worth instructing a solicitor to act in her defense.

somethingcorporate

Errata wrote: »

HTH If your MIL was as fit as a flea when she signed the property over to your OH 15 years ago, then I feel the local authority would find it very difficult to argue Deprivation of Assets. Should they attempt to do so, then it may be worth instructing a solicitor to act in her defense.

^^ this.

It appears obvious to me (and a number of others on this thread) that DoA was not the motivation for the sale of the property. It would be up to the council to prove otherwise and I have no doubt a decent solicitor would be able to fend off any such claim.

Madmel

pinkshoes wrote: »

How much was her share 15 years ago?

Around 55% I think, but I'll have to check that out. DH owns 67% [including her 55%] and I own the other 33%.

Thank you so much to everyone who has contributed. She is still really unwell, but yesterday's crisis was at our house where the heavy rain & snow was too much for the drains outside. Now waiting for the council to get their rodding teams here pronto