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The BBC's "Growing up poor". Poverty seen up close
Comments
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John_Pierpoint wrote: »
However for every top of the pile selfish, greedy, irresponsible, anti-social person, there are a whole lot more at the bottom of the pile, as changes in the distribution of wealth (and the demography of solidity) is changing the distribution back from a diamond towards a pyramid. (with a squeezed no longer secure middle class).
Arguably the top of the pile selfish, greedy, irresponsible, anti social person is slowly contributing to their own problems but they fail to see it.
There is probably, by proportion of the total of each end of the pyramid, a similar number of each."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
It's not that particular consequence of workfare that people ought to be concerned about. Providing people to corporations for free will undermine the security of the paid workforce already in place, not to mention the chances of anyone wanting paid work actually getting a job. Look at all the companies who participated during the christmas rush. Argos, superdrug, tesco, WHSmith, to name just a few of them.
The ability of these companies to secure suitable staff for free meant that thousands of young people like students, who needed that work just to be able to get through the coming year, missed out.
Yes, if you take into account housing benefit and council tqax benefit, for a 30 hour week, working for "free" works out to around £4 an hour after tax from the taxpayer (which they were going to pay anyway so are no worse off) and free for the employer. A deal that threatens to undermine as many NMW jobs as there are free people to do the work instead.
Don't forget the serial "intern" working for free ?
Perhaps there is a cohort of the "workforce" in our technological society that is unemployable at any wage, except in jobs (picking rubbish/wiping bottoms) that it refuses to do ?.0 -
grizzly1911 wrote: »Arguably the top of the pile selfish, greedy, irresponsible, anti social person is slowly contributing to their own problems but they fail to see it.
There is probably, by proportion of the total of each end of the pyramid, a similar number of each.
True but let's try to keep some balance. The right can generally accept that there are undesirables who are damaging society at both ends and in the middle. Why can't the left accept that too ?No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »True but let's try to keep some balance. The right can generally accept that there are undesirables who are damaging society at both ends and in the middle. Why can't the left accept that too ?
Don't they or is that an assumption?
There are people on here that have weak/strong/extreme views to the left, to the right and many in the middle who are reasonable with a good level of common sense and we don't know which way they may vote at any given time."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
grizzly1911 wrote: »Don't they or is that an assumption?
There are people on here that have weak/strong/extreme views to the left, to the right and many in the middle who are reasonable with a good level of common sense and we don't know which way they may vote at any given time.
We don't know how they vote but it's an assumption based on what they say on the forum -- a lot of invective about "toffs" and so on, but a lot of apologising for, or denial about, the cynical benefits scroungersNo-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »We don't know how they vote but it's an assumption based on what they say on the forum -- a lot of invective about "toffs" and so on, but a lot of apologising for, or denial about, the cynical benefits scroungers
The governement set out rules for taxation. Most people adhere to them pay up as and when required. A relatively small number don't but the amount is disproportionately large.
The governemnt set out rules for benefit payments. Most people adhere to them and play by the spirit of them taking what is needed as and when required. A relatively small number don't but the amount is disproportionately large.
Are the number of aggressive tax avoiders/evaders growing - probably yes.
Are the number of long term claimants growing - probably yes."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
grizzly1911 wrote: »The governement set out rules for taxation. Most people adhere to them pay up as and when required. A relatively small number don't but the amount is disproportionately large.
The governemnt set out rules for benefit payments. Most people adhere to them and play by the spirit of them taking what is needed as and when required. A relatively small number don't but the amount is disproportionately large.
Are the number of aggressive tax avoiders/evaders growing - probably yes.
Are the number of long term claimants growing - probably yes.
Aggressive tax avoider = benefits scrounger = reprehensible and immoral
Tax evader = benefits fraudster = illegalNo-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »Aggressive tax avoider = benefits scrounger = reprehensible and immoral
Tax evader = benefits fraudster = illegal
Either side of your equation the numbers are relatively small.
What ever peoples leaning, except those in the equation, they would no doubt agree with the result of the equation."If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future.".....
"big business is parasitic, like a mosquito, whereas I prefer the lighter touch, like that of a butterfly. "A butterfly can suck honey from the flower without damaging it," "Arunachalam Muruganantham0 -
grizzly1911 wrote: »Either side of your equation the numbers are relatively small.
What ever peoples leaning, except those in the equation, they would no doubt agree with the result of the equation.
If you believe that the number of tax evaders and aggressive avoiders is small (esp among the self employed) and that the number of those drawing benefits who never want to work, or benefits that they are not entitled to is small (esp within the black economy), then I'll have some of whatever you are smoking please.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »Aggressive tax avoider = benefits scrounger = reprehensible and immoral
Tax evader = benefits fraudster = illegal
Aggressive tax avoider = benefits scrounger = reprehensible and immoral
To me there is a subtle difference:
A benefit scrounger does nothing to earn his income, he is just working the system to get his hands on someone else's money.
The tax avoider is working the system to hang onto his own money that he created; be it by hard work, foregoing immediate satisfaction in order to create capital, a superior intellect, choosing the right parents, or pure luck.
The sad thing is that in the above list the punter who got lucky with a tax raising system called the National Lottery is the most admired and envied by a lot of people.
At least a banker, unless he is fiddling the odds LIBOR style, is playing a game of skill / intellect against the other players in the casino?0
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