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Sky Phone Screwing Customers on 0844 and 0845 Calls
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I am going to cancel the Sky account and argue that it is not fit for the purpose for which we got it (which was to obtain free local calls) and that I am cancelling it at the earliest point at which I discovered this - therefore I do not expect any termination charges.
Nope!Sound reasonable?
A little history: 0845 began life as "lo-call", charged the same as a local call, at a similar time to 0870, the national rate. At this time, few, if any operators offered anytime call deals (these were the preserve of mobile phone operators). Incidentally, it's is now illegal to refer to 084x/087x as "equivalent to a local/national-rate call" these days, since these terms mean nothing anymore!
Most companies now offer an anytime plan to include all UK landlines. A UK landline is a geographic number, ie one that can be localised. To use it, you dial the STD code (020 for London, 0161 for Manchester, 01296 for Aylesbury etc) and then dial the subscriber number to get a full ten or eleven digit phone number.
0845/0870 are non-geographic numbers, and hence have their own special rate (notwithstanding that when they were first conceived, their rates were set to match those of geographic numbers). Whilst a great many CP's do not charge for these numbers now, that does not make this the "industry standard", nor illegal, or a get-out clause if one does charge (it would be illegal, for example, to charge for an 0808 or charge more more 0345 than a geographic 'landline' number).
Paying for a service which is supplied as advertised is not, I'm afraid, sufficient to exit a contract.
On a side note, if you saw what these calls actually cost Wholesale, you'd cry.Sorry, but the customer is not always right. Often, you're very very wrong.0 -
All 0844 and 0845 numbers are "premium rate". The call price includes a "premium" which you pay to your phone company, and which they pass on to the terminating phone company who may then share some of it with the called party. This payment will soon be known as the "service charge" and it will have to be declared by the users of these numbers wherever their number is advertised.Sky will charge you for 0844 or 0845 calls under their terms and conditions REGARDLESS of whether or not it is a premium line. This, as far as I'm aware, is out of line with every other phone company who only charge for 0844 or 0845 calls where they are to premium lines.
0845 numbers were tied to "local rate" prices, but only until 2004. Since 2004 there has been no such pricing link.i.e. local rate 0844/0845 calls would be included in your package if your package includes free local calls.
0844 numbers have NEVER been tied to "local rates" or "lo-call" pricing.
A few landline providers include 0845 numbers. 0844 numbers are never included. They are generally not inclusive from mobiles.I always thought that no-one included 0845 or 0844 numbers in their unlimited packages.
When Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs" scheme is implemented in 2014, it is likely that 0845 and 0870 will no longer be classed as inclusive calls. However, many companies should have made the move to 0345 or 0370 numbers by then. 03 numbers are always inclusive from both landlines and mobiles.
There is no such thing as "local 0845 calls". The "local rate" term ceased to apply in 2004.I know absolutely that local 0845 calls are included in both BT and Talktalk packages (as long as they are the 'local' rate 0845 not the premium rate).
Some landline providers do include 0845 calls in call packages. As these have a 2p/min equivalent "service charge", which your phone company is obliged to pay to the terminating phone company, your phone company is currently subsidising these calls. This subsidy will probably cease in the next year or so.
0844 numbers are "revenue sharing" and never included in call packages.To be honest I don't really know about 0844 since it's not a number that we use.
The various components that make up what you are charged for these calls have always been hidden within the total call price. Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs" scheme that comes into force in 2014 will force the company you are calling to reveal their "service charge" wherever their number is advertised, and force your phone company to reveal the "access charge" they add on.
Yes, it has. 01 and 02 numbers used to be charged as either "local rate" or "national rate" calls depending on the distance involved. In 2004 this stopped. Thereafter, providers have charged only a single "geographic" rate irrespective of distance. At the same time, most subscribers moved onto inclusive call packages where all calls of up to one hour duration to 01 and 02 numbers, again, irrespective of distance, attract no further charges beyond the monthly package price.Well I guess the definition of 'local' changed to 'UK landline' right?
The definition for "UK landlines" is 01 and 02 numbers (but often does not include the Isle of Man, Jersey or Guernsey).As far as I see it we bought a package strongly marketed as 'anytime' and 'unlimited' calls. Including 'unlimited calls to UK landlines'.
The part about the charge to 0845 is not included in any of their main marketing, nor does it appear on the main list of material conditions to the contract.
03 numbers were introduced in 2007 and these must be charged at the same rate as 01 and 02 numbers and included in all call packages that include 01 and 02 numbers.
084, 087 and 09 numbers are revenue sharing numbers that are charged accordingly. Revenue sharing was suspended on 0870 in 2009. This currently allows 0870 to be inclusive in call packages, but that will probably cease next year.
This is a premium rate number with revenue share, as are all 084 and 087 numbers.We bought the landline for my mother who is disabled so she does all her banking by telephone banking (to an 0845 number).
The good news is that the Consumer Rights Directive will force many companies (banks might not be included, currently it is proposed they be exempt - thanks for the reminder) to drop their 0845 number and move to the matching 0345 number (or to a new 01, 02, 033 or 080 number) when in comes into force later in the year.
Sky could be in breach of ASA rules. Check whether they are still doing it.Local NTS (0845 numbers) 6.63 6.63
Since 2004, 0845 numbers must never be marketed as "local rate" or "lo-call".Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers will soon need to display details of the inbuilt Service Charge under Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs" plans.
Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers for customer service, complaints, renewals, etc, will need to swap to an 01, 02, 03 or 080 number before the Consumer Rights Directive comes into effect June 2014.0 -
This statement is a matter of opinion.The good news is that the Consumer Rights Directive will force your bank to drop their 0845 number and move to the matching 0345 number (or to a new 01, 02, 033 or 080 number) when in comes into force later in the year.
The EU Directive says that Member States may exclude financial services. We will have to wait and see what the UK will do as BIS has yet to publish its response to the consultation it ran a few months ago.0 -
Thanks for the correction.
I had forgotten that financial services are likely to be excluded.Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers will soon need to display details of the inbuilt Service Charge under Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs" plans.
Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers for customer service, complaints, renewals, etc, will need to swap to an 01, 02, 03 or 080 number before the Consumer Rights Directive comes into effect June 2014.0 -
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BT includes 0845 numbers in some packages.
No phone company includes 0844 numbers in packages.Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers will soon need to display details of the inbuilt Service Charge under Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs" plans.
Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers for customer service, complaints, renewals, etc, will need to swap to an 01, 02, 03 or 080 number before the Consumer Rights Directive comes into effect June 2014.0 -
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Ofcom removed revenue sharing from 0870 numbers in 2009 and placed an obligation on landline operators to include 0870 numbers in packages. Unfortunately the removal of revenue sharing didn't lead to (much of) a reduction in the price of calling 0870 numbers from a mobile.
Some landline operators assumed Ofcom were going to remove revenue sharing from 0845 and also began to include those in call packages. Ofcom didn't go ahead with expected changes to 0845 numbers, and those calls remain as revenue sharing numbers. If you're not paying for the call your phone company is subsidising the revenue share payment.
The history is very complicated. It all changes again in the next 18 months. The end result will be very much simpler.
If you have a long attention span, then the gory detail is here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4557431Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers will soon need to display details of the inbuilt Service Charge under Ofcom's "unbundled tariffs" plans.
Businesses using 084, 087 or 09 numbers for customer service, complaints, renewals, etc, will need to swap to an 01, 02, 03 or 080 number before the Consumer Rights Directive comes into effect June 2014.0 -
The "obligation" to include 0870 in packages was on all providers, unless they stated clearly in their pricing literature.Ofcom removed revenue sharing from 0870 numbers in 2009 and placed an obligation on landline operators to include 0870 numbers in packages. Unfortunately the removal of revenue sharing didn't lead to (much of) a reduction in the price of calling 0870 numbers from a mobile.
Ofcom did not feel that it had the power to compell all providers to treat 0870 as no more than geographic call rate (and inclusive where otherwise applicable). If it had have done and had have implemented such a solution then 0870 would have been, from a cost charging perspective, the same as 03.
In such case, customers of the phone company as a whole are covering the cost of 0845 calls, irrespective of whether they ring them or not.Some landline operators assumed Ofcom were going to remove revenue sharing from 0845 and also began to include those in call packages. Ofcom didn't go ahead with expected changes to 0845 numbers, and those calls remain as revenue sharing numbers. If you're not paying for the call your phone company is subsidising the revenue share payment.
Where a call includes a Service Charge, that cost must be passed back to the caller who is the one making the decision to call (that is a decision to "consume" the service).0
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