Can government check savings?

Slobby

I personally think that the means testing of liquid (cash) savings is rather unfair on two levels:

1) This penalises the person who has been prudent and saved up compared to the spendthrift who wasted their cash. One gets a handout, the other doesn't

2) You can own a million pound house outright, but have no cash savings and get a handout. If you have 16000 which you're saving for a house, you're told 'no handout' and have to spend your savings which reduces your chance of getting a house again.

There are all sorts of anomalies in the system.

innovate

MikeR71 wrote: »

Well, as I said before I agree that the welfare state is wrong and immoral.

You shouldn't take handouts from a welfare state then, should you? Nobody forces you to claim child benefit and working tax credit.

MikeR71 wrote: »

Most people wouldn't need child benefit if the government didn't tax so much so it could spend on its various departments.

Do you think it would be fairer to parents if everybody paid less tax, even those people who do not have kids to support? I don't have kids, and would love to pay less tax, but I don't think it would be fair to parents. You can use this line of thought for just about any other benefit.

There's no doubt that our taxation and social system isn't perfect but nothing will ever be perfect. And our system is damned good in comparison with many states in this world. Hell, it even pays benefits to people who think benefits are immoral!

I am horrified when I imagine your "libertarian" state where there seems to be no room for a benefits system, as a safety net for people who have genuinely fallen on hard times.

Voyager2002

MikeR71 wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.

The reason for my original question was to find out how much the government knows about us these days. We are being monitored more than ever and it just occurred to me whether they even have access to our personal bank accounts. That's all.

Regarding morals, this is a different issue. But for me much about the welfare state is immoral. There, I said it, and I know I will probably get pilloried for it. But simply put, I find something immoral and disgusting about governments holding a gun to our heads and taking a chunk of our earnings every month through various forms of tax. They then spend it in a way that THEY deem to be right. In my view this runs counter to our basic liberties. People should be able to decide what they do with most of their earnings, help the poor if they wish voluntarily, not by force.

This is made worse when you consider the fact that the government takes most of your earnings, only to hand it back in various forms, called benefit, making you feel dependent on the state. Government has become our master, we the slaves. It should not be this way.

Unfortunately people have been brainwashed into thinking that the welfare state provides equality and social justice, and yet nothing could be more absurd and further from the truth.

Enough ranting.

Mike, would you like to post again in "Discussion Time"? Your points need to be answered, but the "benefits" board is not the place for a discussion about policy.

Some quick points:

I have lived and worked in countries that practice real slavery (including child slavery), and I object to your attempt to relate paying taxes to being a slave. Such a comparison trivialises the experience of people I have known who were forced to work ten-hour days under a tropical sun, with a whip to encourage them when they got tired. Would you like to change places with such a person?

No-one pays "most" of what they earn to the government, even when you add up the various direct and indirect taxes. And you would be unable to work and earn money if it weren't for the things that government provides (transport; an educated workforce; a legal system..). Believe me: I can show you regions of Africa where no-one pays any tax, and yet it would just not be possible for a modern business to operate.

Oh: and the government does ask us regularly how much tax we would like to pay, how the money should be spent, and so forth. This consultation is called a general election. Did you vote for the current government? If so, you have only yourself to blame.

And if there were no welfare state, what would you put in its place? Would you be content to be surrounded by hordes of beggars all the time?

antrobus

MikeR71 wrote: »

That's not what we were told. The bank in question is HSBC and in fact as we have online current accounts with them, the next day they set up a loan account for us showing 15500 owing to them. I will read the T&Cs of the loan again but I am sure I am right.

The requirements of the CCA override the T&Cs of any loan. Not that I imagine for one minute that HSBC is not complying with the CCA. (But then again, Northern Rock managed it, so who knows?)

If you have been told any different by HSBC. Complain, and take it to FOS if necessary.

poppasmurf_bewdley

HMRC, DWP, the police and security services, and local councils can, and do, access any bank or savings account for any financial information about any individual if they feel there is a need to do so.

MikeR71

Yes, you are right, this discussion doesn't belong here.

But let me just say, I never said there is a utopia. I said the most effective system to eradicate poverty is free market capitalism. The welfare system as we know too well is unsustainable in the long term. Look at the facts and figures. Welfare actually harms the very people it claims to help.

Innovate:

It always takes very little for someone to bring this sort of conversation to so low as you just did:

You shouldn't take handouts from a welfare state then, should you? Nobody forces you to claim child benefit and working tax credit.

The day I can unilaterally opt out of paying tax is the day I stop claiming benefits, ok?

Do you understand what I am getting at? In the kind of system I am in favour of, you pay a low flat rate of tax and do away with most benefits. But as long as I live in a system that takes my money by force and leaves me out of pocket, only to offer it back in benefits the way IT sees fit, don't expect me to opt out of benefits. It should work both ways. Capiche?

MikeR71

Here we go. For anyone who has the stomach and is willing to debate:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4381143

Sorry for going off topic here.

Voyager2002

MikeR71 wrote: »

Yes, you are right, this discussion doesn't belong here.

But let me just say, I never said there is a utopia. I said the most effective system to eradicate poverty is free market capitalism. The welfare system as we know too well is unsustainable in the long term. Look at the facts and figures. Welfare actually harms the very people it claims to help.

Innovate:

It always takes very little for someone to bring this sort of conversation to so low as you did:

The day I can unilaterally opt out of paying tax is the day I stop claiming benefits, ok?

Do you understand what I am getting at? In the kind of system I am in favour of, you pay a low flat rate of tax and do away with most benefits. But as long as I live in a system that takes my money by force and leaves me out of pocket, only to offer it back in benefits the way IT sees fit, don't expect me to opt out of benefits. It should work both ways. Capiche?

History proves your view of the economy is badly wrong.

It is not very easy to find examples of near-pure free market capitalism, mainly because common sense stops most people from going too far into putting it into practice. But one good example is Chile in the 1980s, where the state withdrew from the economy, market forces were set free to work their magic... and as a result the economy contracted with poverty and misery for all. OTOH you might like to look at successful economies (Britain under Victoria; the USA before about 1970; West Germany and Japan before 1990) and you would be amazed at just how much government control of the economy was practiced.

atush

le_loup wrote: »

What a prat! Wait until you need a helping hand. Wait until you claim your pension. Wait until your children need education. Wait until you need the police. Wait until you get dementia.
Oh boy, we are heading to Republican Tea Party politics now in this country. Want a gun as well?

I flew all the way home to vote just so I could vote against Tea party candidates in my state.

innovate

MikeR71 wrote: »

Do you understand what I am getting at?

sorry, no I don't

MikeR71 wrote: »

Capiche?

Nope.