Solar ... In the news

JKenH

michaels said:

JKenH said:

QrizB said:

Martyn1981 said:

The balcony PV part is also fascinating, as a quick and easy way to add PV. I think Germany, like much of Europe, allows plug-in PV like this, using a small inverter or micro-inverters. Whereas the UK requires hardwiring, or the use of a socket on a dedicated circuit (effectively the same I think?)
No idea if the UK is right or wrong, I am a bit safety conscience myself, but something I've harped on about for over a decade in the UK, would be a small 1 or 2 panel canopy system. Make a simple rainshield over the front or back door, or over a porch, all DIY, or handyman.

I understand the theoretical concerns about plug-in PV - by taking a circuit that's designed to be fed form one point (the consumer unit) and adding a second source of power (the PV) you risk allowing loads on the circuit that exceed the capacity of the conductors without tripping the protective devices (fuse/MCB/RCBO) fitted to the CU or PV system.

The "simple" option of reducing the rating of the CU MCB then means the circuit can't supply its designed power when the PV isn't generating.

Germany's approach is to limit you to (link) 800 watts of balcony PV, which is only 4 amps or so. I guess German wiring regs are such that adding a 4A supply to the wrong end of a circuit has been deemed acceptable by VDE. (Is Germany all radial circuits, rather than rings, which eliminates the chance of a broken ring fault?)

Edit: here's a self-install kit, 800 watt inverter plus 900 watts of panel for £300:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134766303393

International shipping from Germany is a bit of a sting, at ~£100 if you wanted one delivered to the UK, but it show's what's possible when there's a market.

Second edit to add photo/screenshot, since eBay links tend to expire.

Or you could buy this EcoFlow PowerStream for £99. I’ve had one of these for a couple of years wired up to a couple of odd solar panels mounted on pallets on casters so they can be oriented towards the sun. As it’s a ground mount I get a lot of shade in the winter but have seen 9 Os in summer. The inverter has lived outside for 2 winters, just protected by a bit of shelter from the panels. At the time they were on sale there was a bit of discussion whether they complied with UK regs and EcoFlow withdrew them.

https://www.hampshiregenerators.co.uk/generators/portable-power-stations/ecoflow-powerstream-microinverter/

Apart from the regs, could you literally just attach 2 random second hand panels and plug into a socket ring?

Yes, that is what Ecoflow intended. It is permissible to do that in Germany. Although the system is limited to 800w output, you can connect 2 x 500w panels. Mine are 330w and 370w as that is what I had already. 

ed110220

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

QrizB said:

Martyn1981 said:

The balcony PV part is also fascinating, as a quick and easy way to add PV. I think Germany, like much of Europe, allows plug-in PV like this, using a small inverter or micro-inverters. Whereas the UK requires hardwiring, or the use of a socket on a dedicated circuit (effectively the same I think?)
No idea if the UK is right or wrong, I am a bit safety conscience myself, but something I've harped on about for over a decade in the UK, would be a small 1 or 2 panel canopy system. Make a simple rainshield over the front or back door, or over a porch, all DIY, or handyman.

I understand the theoretical concerns about plug-in PV - by taking a circuit that's designed to be fed form one point (the consumer unit) and adding a second source of power (the PV) you risk allowing loads on the circuit that exceed the capacity of the conductors without tripping the protective devices (fuse/MCB/RCBO) fitted to the CU or PV system.

The "simple" option of reducing the rating of the CU MCB then means the circuit can't supply its designed power when the PV isn't generating.

Germany's approach is to limit you to (link) 800 watts of balcony PV, which is only 4 amps or so. I guess German wiring regs are such that adding a 4A supply to the wrong end of a circuit has been deemed acceptable by VDE. (Is Germany all radial circuits, rather than rings, which eliminates the chance of a broken ring fault?)

Edit: here's a self-install kit, 800 watt inverter plus 900 watts of panel for £300:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134766303393

International shipping from Germany is a bit of a sting, at ~£100 if you wanted one delivered to the UK, but it show's what's possible when there's a market.

Second edit to add photo/screenshot, since eBay links tend to expire.

Or you could buy this EcoFlow PowerStream for £99. I’ve had one of these for a couple of years wired up to a couple of odd solar panels mounted on pallets on casters so they can be oriented towards the sun. As it’s a ground mount I get a lot of shade in the winter but have seen 9 Os in summer. The inverter has lived outside for 2 winters, just protected by a bit of shelter from the panels. At the time they were on sale there was a bit of discussion whether they complied with UK regs and EcoFlow withdrew them.

https://www.hampshiregenerators.co.uk/generators/portable-power-stations/ecoflow-powerstream-microinverter/

Apart from the regs, could you literally just attach 2 random second hand panels and plug into a socket ring?

Yes, that is what Ecoflow intended. It is permissible to do that in Germany. Although the system is limited to 800w output, you can connect 2 x 500w panels. Mine are 330w and 370w as that is what I had already. 

I'm guessing it has no ability to detect what is being consumed and any excess will be exported? Just wondering how that will interact with a hybrid inverter.

JKenH

ed110220 said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

QrizB said:

Martyn1981 said:

The balcony PV part is also fascinating, as a quick and easy way to add PV. I think Germany, like much of Europe, allows plug-in PV like this, using a small inverter or micro-inverters. Whereas the UK requires hardwiring, or the use of a socket on a dedicated circuit (effectively the same I think?)
No idea if the UK is right or wrong, I am a bit safety conscience myself, but something I've harped on about for over a decade in the UK, would be a small 1 or 2 panel canopy system. Make a simple rainshield over the front or back door, or over a porch, all DIY, or handyman.

I understand the theoretical concerns about plug-in PV - by taking a circuit that's designed to be fed form one point (the consumer unit) and adding a second source of power (the PV) you risk allowing loads on the circuit that exceed the capacity of the conductors without tripping the protective devices (fuse/MCB/RCBO) fitted to the CU or PV system.

The "simple" option of reducing the rating of the CU MCB then means the circuit can't supply its designed power when the PV isn't generating.

Germany's approach is to limit you to (link) 800 watts of balcony PV, which is only 4 amps or so. I guess German wiring regs are such that adding a 4A supply to the wrong end of a circuit has been deemed acceptable by VDE. (Is Germany all radial circuits, rather than rings, which eliminates the chance of a broken ring fault?)

Edit: here's a self-install kit, 800 watt inverter plus 900 watts of panel for £300:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134766303393

International shipping from Germany is a bit of a sting, at ~£100 if you wanted one delivered to the UK, but it show's what's possible when there's a market.

Second edit to add photo/screenshot, since eBay links tend to expire.

Or you could buy this EcoFlow PowerStream for £99. I’ve had one of these for a couple of years wired up to a couple of odd solar panels mounted on pallets on casters so they can be oriented towards the sun. As it’s a ground mount I get a lot of shade in the winter but have seen 9 Os in summer. The inverter has lived outside for 2 winters, just protected by a bit of shelter from the panels. At the time they were on sale there was a bit of discussion whether they complied with UK regs and EcoFlow withdrew them.

https://www.hampshiregenerators.co.uk/generators/portable-power-stations/ecoflow-powerstream-microinverter/

Apart from the regs, could you literally just attach 2 random second hand panels and plug into a socket ring?

Yes, that is what Ecoflow intended. It is permissible to do that in Germany. Although the system is limited to 800w output, you can connect 2 x 500w panels. Mine are 330w and 370w as that is what I had already. 

I'm guessing it has no ability to detect what is being consumed and any excess will be exported? Just wondering how that will interact with a hybrid inverter.

Ecoflow’s intention is that it should be connected to one of their portable battery systems which I believe give some degree of control over whether generation is consumed, stored or exported. I am not aware of any capability for connection to other inverters. It does come with a decent app which shows live generation from each panel which is handy in optimising inclination and orientation. I only alter the inclination a few times a year but with my set up I could adjust the panel inclination during the day with a more vertical alignment in morning and evening and more horizontal midday. If I could be bothered I could probably see 10 Os in high summer.

ed110220

JKenH said:

ed110220 said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

QrizB said:

Martyn1981 said:

The balcony PV part is also fascinating, as a quick and easy way to add PV. I think Germany, like much of Europe, allows plug-in PV like this, using a small inverter or micro-inverters. Whereas the UK requires hardwiring, or the use of a socket on a dedicated circuit (effectively the same I think?)
No idea if the UK is right or wrong, I am a bit safety conscience myself, but something I've harped on about for over a decade in the UK, would be a small 1 or 2 panel canopy system. Make a simple rainshield over the front or back door, or over a porch, all DIY, or handyman.

I understand the theoretical concerns about plug-in PV - by taking a circuit that's designed to be fed form one point (the consumer unit) and adding a second source of power (the PV) you risk allowing loads on the circuit that exceed the capacity of the conductors without tripping the protective devices (fuse/MCB/RCBO) fitted to the CU or PV system.

The "simple" option of reducing the rating of the CU MCB then means the circuit can't supply its designed power when the PV isn't generating.

Germany's approach is to limit you to (link) 800 watts of balcony PV, which is only 4 amps or so. I guess German wiring regs are such that adding a 4A supply to the wrong end of a circuit has been deemed acceptable by VDE. (Is Germany all radial circuits, rather than rings, which eliminates the chance of a broken ring fault?)

Edit: here's a self-install kit, 800 watt inverter plus 900 watts of panel for £300:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134766303393

International shipping from Germany is a bit of a sting, at ~£100 if you wanted one delivered to the UK, but it show's what's possible when there's a market.

Second edit to add photo/screenshot, since eBay links tend to expire.

Or you could buy this EcoFlow PowerStream for £99. I’ve had one of these for a couple of years wired up to a couple of odd solar panels mounted on pallets on casters so they can be oriented towards the sun. As it’s a ground mount I get a lot of shade in the winter but have seen 9 Os in summer. The inverter has lived outside for 2 winters, just protected by a bit of shelter from the panels. At the time they were on sale there was a bit of discussion whether they complied with UK regs and EcoFlow withdrew them.

https://www.hampshiregenerators.co.uk/generators/portable-power-stations/ecoflow-powerstream-microinverter/

Apart from the regs, could you literally just attach 2 random second hand panels and plug into a socket ring?

Yes, that is what Ecoflow intended. It is permissible to do that in Germany. Although the system is limited to 800w output, you can connect 2 x 500w panels. Mine are 330w and 370w as that is what I had already. 

I'm guessing it has no ability to detect what is being consumed and any excess will be exported? Just wondering how that will interact with a hybrid inverter.

Ecoflow’s intention is that it should be connected to one of their portable battery systems which I believe give some degree of control over whether generation is consumed, stored or exported. I am not aware of any capability for connection to other inverters. It does come with a decent app which shows live generation from each panel which is handy in optimising inclination and orientation. I only alter the inclination a few times a year but with my set up I could adjust the panel inclination during the day with a more vertical alignment in morning and evening and more horizontal midday. If I could be bothered I could probably see 10 Os in high summer.

I'm not expecting it to communicate with my existing hybrid inverter, just wondering if the hybrid inverter will be 'confused' by detecting more export via its CT clamp than it is putting out.

QrizB

I can see two credible scenarios:

1. Your hybrid inverter sees the other system and draws mains power to charge the battery, balancing at zero export until the battery is full; or

2. Your hybrid inverter ignores the additional export.

Nothing on this post is meant as encouraging unlawful installation of DIY solar generation.

That Would Be Wrong.

JKenH

Unlawful is an interesting term. Something may be in breach of IEE/DNO regulations but does that actually make it against the law? I would be interested to know what the legal position is. Obviously if someone is injured as a consequence there could be civil and criminal charges brought and breach of regulations would be primary face evidence of negligence but can someone be prosecuted for plugging something into a circuit that shouldn’t be plugged in? The situation would obviously be different if you were renting out the property as specific safety regulations apply in that case. 

Separate question. Is there a safety risk in plugging an inverter in any more than if it were wired in? Is it actually in breach of IEE regs - I would presume, perhaps, it is but I don’t know. I would presume there could be a prosecution if it does breach IEE regs but what if there is no safety implication?

As another example of breach of DNO regs, what is the position if you connect more solar than is approved by the DNO. Just as a comparison with building regs. If you build or alter something you shouldn’t have done, the local authority remedy is usually to require it be demolished or returned to its previous condition. Would the remedy in event of a DNO or indeed IEE regs breach for a private householder simply be to remedy or reinstate, or does a mere breach render one liable to prosecution?

paul991

With the wiring regs its the best way to ensure a system is safe is to comply with the latest edition of the regs or to have a system that provides the same level of safety as one that does<usually designed by a qualified engineer>failing to do so would open you to prosecution in the event of a accident.   

70sbudgie

It is covered by the Electricity Act 1989. Just looking for the specific bit regarding what can be connected to the network. I think the consequences are that the DNO can disconnect you from the grid. You could also be open to criminal prosecution (because Act). 

But I'm just checking. 

I believe that DNOs have specific departments to deal with this sort of thing. But I expect they will go after bigger fish than someone who has just added an extra panel to their domestic install.

Martyn1981

70sbudgie said:

It is covered by the Electricity Act 1989. Just looking for the specific bit regarding what can be connected to the network. I think the consequences are that the DNO can disconnect you from the grid. You could also be open to criminal prosecution (because Act). 

But I'm just checking. 

I believe that DNOs have specific departments to deal with this sort of thing. But I expect they will go after bigger fish than someone who has just added an extra panel to their domestic install.

I suspect you are right about the 'bigger fish'.

The real concern, is probably the risk that your insurance will be invalid, due to having some sort of non-compliance. So that may be used as an escape clause to avoid paying out, even if the non-compliant item itself, was not involved, nor related to the incident.

QrizB

My comment was largely related to this part of the MSE forum rules:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/site/forum-faqs/

Do not promote, encourage or glamorise any illegal activities. In particular on MSE, if you are thinking of posting about taking advantage of something that is dubious, or that exploits a 'grey area' of the law, err on the side of caution and do not share information about it. Common sense prevails here.

We're all grown ups (or I hope we are) and can live with our own bad decisions, but we should be cognisant of that first sentence.