Solar ... In the news

markin

Martyn1981 wrote: »

More news today on the massive potential of PV in France (quicker and cheaper than nuclear, and far lower FF emissions than nuclear (yes I did say that)).

French energy agency says ‘neglected’ areas offer 53 GW of PV potential

No mention of storage at all, don't they already get some German solar at rock bottom prices, what will they do at peak time just keep exporting on, Do they have a storage plan?



I guess they do have some time to figure it out... "36.5 GW of solar capacity by 2030"


Looking at gridwatch graphs it seems to me that even the uk seem to export solar to NL sometimes, or they just happen to line up.

Martyn1981

silverwhistle wrote: »

Demand side generation and reduced demand through efficiencies also reduces the level of investment needed to upgrade the local distribution network. Now it's less due to increasing individual demand, but due to increased number of households in certain areas. Even back in the 80's, a story I've mentioned here before, a distribution engineer in my company joked it would be cheaper to give every household in an area a few CFL's (!) than upgrade a substation.

I think one of the best ideas I've heard of was from S. Korea (I think), then you pointed out to me many years ago that Italy do it too ...... and that's have a power limit pricing - I think you may have said yours was 5kW or something like that.

I watched a short doco on the Island of Eigg which was expanding their generation, and the households have a 5kW trip, so if you switch on too much, it trips out, and this ensures that the network doesn't have too much load at any one time.

Our house has a 100A main fuse, so approx 23kW, which seems somewhat ridiculous, though perhaps going forward with EV's, heat pumps etc, it might become more reasonable. But having an inbuilt cap does seem clever, and whilst of course the wealthy can have more, it does give 'the poor' a chance to shave off some costs by opting for a smaller limit.

Having enjoyed the PV experience for a few years now, I don't think it's that hard to keep in mind total demand be it too avoid import, or to keep within an external cap.

I hope I've sorta explained this correctly?

zeupater

silverwhistle wrote: »

Demand side generation and reduced demand through efficiencies also reduces the level of investment needed to upgrade the local distribution network. Now it's less due to increasing individual demand, but due to increased number of households in certain areas. Even back in the 80's, a story I've mentioned here before, a distribution engineer in my company joked it would be cheaper to give every household in an area a few CFL's (!) than upgrade a substation.


On the question of smart meters, they may not give the general reduction in demand for the reasons that you mooted, but as we have seen with the numbers of households with PV more awareness when you produce your own certainly has helped reduce peak demand. (An argument for more demand side PV, perhaps? )



The thread by Zarch is interesting regarding the use of time of day and variable rate tariffs. They obviously need smart meters, although no doubt somebody will come along and say that they're not fair in some way or other.


But it does seem curious how, as Martyn has observed, there have always been some people who seem to object to people having the opportunity to do something themselves and would prefer the monolithic, centralised projects.

Hi

I was really including demand side microgeneration as reduced demand as this is the only way that the grid can be managed/balanced as a single entity .... the FiT scheme being included within the term 'such schemes' alongside RHI etc ....

Regarding the observation, I agree .... it often seems like a concerted effort by the energy industry to maintain control of their sector in order to protect revenue streams, similar to what we often see when someone tries to promote their product on the forum using overinflated or even outrageously illogical claims .... but that never happens, does it?, perhaps it's sounding like time to dig out the tin-foil hat & hurry towards the Faraday cage ....

HTH
Z

silverwhistle

Martyn1981 wrote: »

I think one of the best ideas I've heard of was from S. Korea (I think), then you pointed out to me many years ago that Italy do it too ...... and that's have a power limit pricing - I think you may have said yours was 5kW or something like that.

Standard is only 3kWp nominal but actually trips at 3.3 and required a trip out to the meter box to reset, although I believe it was straightforward to pay more to double up. Beyond that for large luxury villas etc. I don't know but suspect commercial type tariffs came in to play. I never saw the need to pay more.. even with a "boiler", i.e water heater (!), I only tripped about 3 times in 7 years, although admittedly my cooking stove was run from a gas bottle on the balcony.



It has the same effect as PV in making you aware of demand.



I'm not sure how the take up of BEVs will be affected by this in Italy; perhaps a lot of slower than the UK trickle charging!

GreatApe

silverwhistle wrote: »

I'm not sure how the take up of BEVs will be affected by this in Italy; perhaps a lot of slower than the UK trickle charging!

BEVs will self drive to the local super charger which will be connected to the HVAC grid and charge up before coming back to your drive

While it may use 0.5KWh to do the 1 mile there and 1 mile back, its charging will be more efficient as the HVAC grid will have about 3% loss vs 7-10% to your home. So actually a saving in energy

This also means you dont need to buy home chargers or get kits and no problem if you live in a flat or have no drive

A 20 min fast charge means a charging station with 10 charger can charge 600+ cars a day
Software can route it so cars arrive and leave just in time
And your car might only visit the charger 2-3 times a week depending on your driving habits and mileage

This way there will also be no grid bottlenecks
And perhaps you can even buy the eletric for cheaper than retail
Since high eletric users get cheaper prices
So instead of paying 16p retail at home you might pay 12p (10p electric plus 2p for the charging station to cover its overheads)

Martyn1981

Interesting article in its own right, but makes me wonder if Australia will be taking the lead in developing large scale storage solutions (the big Aussie Batt is mainly for frequency response)?

It doesn't have to be all of Australia, or any country, just a significantly sized market, then we can look to that for ideas, economics and scaleability.

Electricity demand in WA set to fall for first time, AEMO forecasts, as solar power takes over

In its latest report on the south-west wholesale electricity market, the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) said it was no longer expecting the use of power drawn from the grid to increase as the state's population grew.

Instead, AEMO said it was forecasting demand — or "operational consumption" — to fall almost 4 per cent between 2019–20 and 2027–28, bucking long-held assumptions that link power use to an economy's size.

markin

The big Aussie Tesla Batt is not for frequency response, They aren't even getting paid for the service last i heard, it was a reaction to the black out and is to allow gas to spin up when the wind drops.


When to many homes leave the grid its going to be industry and business left paying high prices and that will hurt the economy.

Martyn1981

markin wrote: »

The big Aussie Tesla Batt is not for frequency response,

Hornsdale battery has 'significant impact' on market

The 100MW/129MWh battery was provided by US firm Tesla in response to a series of blackouts in South Australia in 2016.

It was installed beside the 314MW Hornsdale wind complex in South Australia, developed by French company Neoen. It is the largest lithium-ion battery storage system currently operating in the world.

Since being completed in December 2017, it has been providing frequency response and ancillary services to the National Electricity Market (NEM) across southeast Australia.

A new report by consultancy firm Aurecon found HPR "delivered on the high expectations of its performance and market impact".

Among its findings, the report found HPR allowed the removal of 35MW of capacity payments from the Frequency Control Ancillary Service (FCAS).

Hexane

markin wrote: »

When to many homes leave the grid its going to be industry and business left paying high prices and that will hurt the economy.

Or equally likely, it will drive innovation in efficiency savings, thereby benefitting the environment, the technology sector, and the economy.

markin

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Hornsdale battery has 'significant impact' on market

Among its findings, the report found HPR allowed the removal of 35MW of capacity payments from the Frequency Control Ancillary Service (FCAS).

They should be getting paid for that 35MW the way i understand it, Any FC is simply a by-product and not the reason it was built, the contract is confidential though so who knows, But that is how it was put in the documentary i watched if i remember correctly.


The Tesla Rep seemed to be hinting they should be paid for that service and that they are in talks, iirc.