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kevin6666

Go on then Mart lets play along...So Spain/Aus keep installing PV to the grid at the unsubsidised rates. The old FIT rates remain for older Installations as originally promised.

What happens next? The major traditional suppliers can't compete? If everyones got Free elecy who actually pays for the older FITs? Who pays for the Grid? Santa?

What happens if the traditional suppliers are making a loss? Do they make a loss forever? Are they nationalised or do they shut down:- can the country power its grid from PV & other renewables alone?

It's fundamental stuff that needs a lot of thought and planning for medium and long term.

Do you think the governments around the world have some sort of global conspiracy against PV or is it just the case that they want to protect their countrys power supplys as perhaps just maybe at current a country can't survive on PV and other renewables alone.

kevin6666

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Two things, firstly, "find the opposite", please show me?

Secondly, quick google of 'spain + stealing sun fine' and you should find lots of articles.

Mart.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/spanish-self-consumption-law-allows-batteries-at-a-cost
"The only way for consumers to avoid the tax on the sun altogether, though, is by going completely off grid"

http://wolfstreet.com/2015/06/14/the-men-who-stole-the-sun-spain-solar-power-taxes-fines-to-protect-giants/
"Only totally off-grid consumers who have their own completely independent energy-production systems will be able to use batteries without being penalized for it."

http://planetsave.com/2015/06/18/in-spain-solar-energy-storage-is-worse-than-nuclear-spillage/
"Off-grid solar installation owners, however, will be permitted to install solar storage units without fear of paying the new tax."

Martyn1981

kevin6666 wrote: »

Go on then Mart lets play along...So Spain/Aus keep installing PV to the grid at the unsubsidised rates. The old FIT rates remain for older Installations as originally promised.

What happens next? The major traditional suppliers can't compete? If everyones got Free elecy who actually pays for the older FITs? Who pays for the Grid? Santa?

What happens if the traditional suppliers are making a loss? Do they make a loss forever? Are they nationalised or do they shut down:- can the country power its grid from PV & other renewables alone?

It's fundamental stuff that needs a lot of thought and planning for medium and long term.

Kevin, I'm not disagreeing with you that this is a problem. PV is probably best described as disruptive.

What I'm disagreeing with you on, is the way you seem to be blaming PV for the problems, it's not PV, it's progress.

Should TV's have been banned to protect the cinema industry? Should domestic cars be banned to protect the public transport industry (buses, trains etc)?

Spain could now have domestic PV that saves those households money, but that would impact on the established industry, and they're not happy!

kevin6666 wrote: »

Do you think the governments around the world have some sort of global conspiracy against PV or is it just the case that they want to protect their countrys power supplys as perhaps just maybe at current a country can't survive on PV and other renewables alone.

No I don't think there's a global conspiracy by governments, however, if you read what I've posted, you'll see that where the generators/suppliers are strong, they are able to get rules/regs etc passed to make life difficult for demand side PV - remember, they don't mind generating it themselves, as they can then sell it, it's loss of market that scares them.

Also consider the economics, losing 10% of market doesn't mean a 10% loss of profit, it could be far, far worse, since most industries have a breakeven point, beyond which is profit, below which is a loss. Also remember that domestic leccy probably carries a higher profit margin, so losing domestic demand in Aus, Spain, Nevada etc where they have the sun and space, spells bad news for the bottom line.

Mart.

Martyn1981

kevin6666 wrote: »

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/spanish-self-consumption-law-allows-batteries-at-a-cost
"The only way for consumers to avoid the tax on the sun altogether, though, is by going completely off grid"

http://wolfstreet.com/2015/06/14/the-men-who-stole-the-sun-spain-solar-power-taxes-fines-to-protect-giants/
"Only totally off-grid consumers who have their own completely independent energy-production systems will be able to use batteries without being penalized for it."

http://planetsave.com/2015/06/18/in-spain-solar-energy-storage-is-worse-than-nuclear-spillage/
"Off-grid solar installation owners, however, will be permitted to install solar storage units without fear of paying the new tax."

All of your quotes refer to the tax paid on export. I was referring to the sun stealing fines which can be in the tens of millions.

Spain’s solar industry protests outside prison against ‘criminalisation of PV’

A number of major changes to the Spanish solar support landscape have been announced in recent weeks but Wednesday’s event was specifically to draw attention to plans for fines of up to €30 million (US$40 million) for people consuming solar energy not generated within the country’s oligopoly of energy companies.

“The criminalisation of the use of solar electricity for those citizens who want to produce their own energy is a direct attack on human rights and on energy democracy, thus preventing anyone from contributing to reducing emissions to avoid climate change,” said a statement read at the event.

NPD Solarbuzz: Spain’s solar u-turn could expose €20 billion PV bubble

Proposed new laws would fine those with solar panels making use of the old off-grid, self-consumption programme (known as “autoconsumo”) by as much as €30 million (US$39.9 million) if they did not connect to the grid.

Perhaps it's my fault for not making it clear that there are two issues, tax for on-grid and potential fines for off-grid. Also, my understanding was that the fines would relate to larger deployments (not domestic), which is why I said

To prevent large scale off grid solutions, they also got a decree for a fine on stealing sunlight, which I seem to remember is in the tens of millions of Euros.

Regardless, I think both decrees, however they are used, or deployed, are unfair and designed for the singular purpose of preventing on-grid PV and on-grid PV with storage, in order to prevent loss of market for the suppliers.

Mart.

kevin6666

I'm gonna call bs on the tax for off-grid installs in Spain for the moment and the same for the 'fines' for going off-grid.

I need to do a bit more reading on this 'grid' & 'sun' tax but some stuff I've read around the tax going to your Supplier is fine but doesn't make sense if you're off-grid for obvious reason.

My guess is you're free to go off-grid and can do whatever you want with your pv with no tax. If that's not the case then I'd be amazed and it would definitely be the incorrect thing to do.

Alan_Brown

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Now, that install will have to pay a fee to dump its export onto the grid (give it to the grid for free). The fee is about €0.06/kWh. But importantly is paid on generation, not export. So that 5kWp install would have to pay €450 pa for the privilege of giving away any spare leccy. That fee effectively prevents subsidy free PV in Spain.

Thanks to all involved for posting this discussion, it's really interesting.

IF overloading is a real issue and IF there is a real cost with dealing with it, then I can understand the electricity companies wanting to charge on generation as any overload would have to cover maximum potential energy exported not just the random amounts that actually goes into the grid.

Alan_Brown

However, that fee must only cover the cost of dealing with excess, it shouldn't be so high that the electricity companies make a profit on it.

I can imagine Spanish entrepreneurs inventing a immersun device that exports all unused solar to fan heaters at the bottom of the garden (or even better, to heat swimming pools) rather than feeding into the grid, avoiding the fee completely. I'm sure a diode style device that stops electricity flowing from the house to the grid would ensure that solar overloading is prevented.

Martyn1981

Alan_Brown wrote: »

However, that fee must only cover the cost of dealing with excess, it shouldn't be so high that the electricity companies make a profit on it.

I can imagine Spanish entrepreneurs inventing a immersun device that exports all unused solar to fan heaters at the bottom of the garden (or even better, to heat swimming pools) rather than feeding into the grid, avoiding the fee completely. I'm sure a diode style device that stops electricity flowing from the house to the grid would ensure that solar overloading is prevented.

To be clear, the tax isn't to deal with any excess, it's to prevent demand side PV. Effectively block any competition.

Obviously if there was an excess of PV, then spot prices would drop, and 'clever folk' would find ways to make use of lower spot prices, such as hydrogen production (for bio-methane etc), battery storage for later sale back to the grid etc etc.

Regarding your immersun idea, unfortunately, you'd still be using a GTI (grid tied inverter), and the export tax is based on generation, not export, so you'd still pay on every unit, despite exporting nothing.

Hence the need for a completely off-grid PV setup to avoid the export tax.

If this sounds too harsh to be true, trust me, nobody believes a system like this can be real till they read the articles and press coverage, it really is that bad, and that obvious. I've been following it for years and still can't believe it's happened.

Very sad.

Mart.

Martyn1981

@Alan. Just for more context, several years ago I was chatting with a guy from Spain about this. He is on grid, but has PV and batts, and even runs an ASHP at night from the batts, as generation is far more even across the year in Spain.

He pointed out (hypothetically) that for £500 you could install 2 panels and a small inverter. A 500Wp system would generate around 750kWh pa, most of which would be consumed, so savings af around £100, giving a 5 year payback. Pretty much a no-brainer and very little up front money.

Next he pointed out that land is cheaper in Spain, so most properties could probably find somewhere to place 2 panels, or quickly rig up a bracket in the garden.

If every house reduced its consumption by 750kWh pa, then that would be a disaster for the energy generators and suppliers. Effectively, demand side PV became too cheap and easy in Spain. He's the guy that described the suppliers as a M***a.

Mart.

kevin6666

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Kevin, I'm not disagreeing with you that this is a problem. PV is probably best described as disruptive.

What I'm disagreeing with you on, is the way you seem to be blaming PV for the problems, it's not PV, it's progress.

You don't seem to be offering any sort of solution to the problem though. It seems in your world taking Spain as an example they should have done nothing. i.e. Left existing FITs Installs as they are and carry on allowing domestic generators to install PV with no charges for using the grid.

Can you answer what happens when the major suppliers close or withdraw from Spain? Fine with the idea of the countrys national grid collapsing? Could well be the worst disaster is human history.