Real-life MMD: Should we pay to shrink our garden?

Mojisola

AshleyJane wrote: »

However, properties with gardens with ajoining neighbours mean that you will always own one garden fence that you are responsible for and that will already be determined legally from plans.

Not so. You might be responsible for all the fences or for none of them. You might have responsibility for one or more boundaries or they could all be joint with the neighbours.

If the fence in question is the side you are legally responsible for then you have an obligation to cover that cost if it is proven to be in the wrong position.

Unless your deeds state that you must put up a particular kind of fence, eg. four foot high stock-proof fence, then you have no legal obligation to put up anything. You could put a bamboo cane at either end of the boundary; you could put a string along the line or a row of stones; you don't have to put up a fence.

If the neighbour does intend to win at any cost, it may be better to pull out of the fight early on, even if they are in the wrong. In this case, I would have thought that the neighbours would have pursued this with the previous owners if they were that type.

What may be worth looking into is whether the neighbours have plans for an extension. This is often the reason why people start measuring boundaries and thinking about reclaiming land from other people's gardens.

spidereyes

I work in conveyancing and just wanted to add my opinion.

Firstly it's not a case that your solicitor has been negligent as others have suggested. Your solicitor would have checked the plans etc of course, but would have no way of knowing for certain that the suggested boundaries on the plan match exactly what is in the garden.

The only reason to go back to your solicitor in this matter would be o if you have reason to believe (or evidence) that the vendors did not disclose a boundary dispute before exchange of contracts. If this is the case you may be able to negotiate a deal or sue.

From experience boundary disputes can be very costly so think very carefully about getting involved legally with your neighbour.

I wouldn't mind betting that it was something that was casually discussed in the past but nothing was ever done about it, now the neighbour thinks its a good time to attempt to "resolve"

silps

I was told by solicitors that a fence cannot necessarily denote a boundary line as fences often move about when replaced/built.

You cannot measure a boundary line using a tape measure against the side wall of your house etc.

Only a land surveyor can measure a boundary line using fixed reference points and the boundary could be where neither of you thinks it is.

Get advice from a solicitor who specialises in boundary disputes. Ask your neighbour if they have a land surveyors report. Chartered surveyors are not qualified to determine a boundary but they usually put in there opinions.

Dont agree to anything your neighbour says until you have legal advice.

halsteadk

Normally the fence on one side of each property is the full responsibility of one owner to maintain. If this is your neighbour's fence, you should definitely not pay ANY of the cost regardless of any other factor.

"would you contribute to the cost of them moving their shed from one place to another on their land?"

But if this fence belongs to the person, then they have effectively put their own fence on someone else's land. To follow the analogy, if you put your shed on your neighbour's garden, you would surely expect to have to move it?

jorok

Ebenezer_Screwj wrote: »

The boundary fence obviously belongs to your neighbours as well as the portion of land, you do not have to contribute towards moving it.

In fact the boundary fence belongs to whoever paid to have it put up. Responsibility for a particular boundary is usually shown by 'T' marks on the plans in the deeds.
There is no legal obligation to erect a fence OR maintain one on any boundary unless a covenant in the deeds says so.(but you may feel a MORAL obligation).
My answer to a boundary fence dispute was to plant a hawthorn hedge on my side of the failing fence in question and invite the neighbours to replace it if they did not like the look of it.
How you mark your boundary (or not) is up to you, but it is nice to agree what to do with the neighbours. If this involves making a (voluntary) contribution to the cost of a boundary structure that you both like so much the better.

suchgreatheights

Although some good advice, lots of people are getting lots of things wrong (not just picking on AshleyJane).

AshleyJane wrote: »

if the fence has lay there for 12 years then legally the land and new boundary line is yours

This is not true. In order to claim adverse possession over a piece of registered land you have to demonstrate two things:

1. Factual possession of the land
2. Intention to possess the land

for a period of 10 years (not 12 - this duration applies to unregistered land).

You have only just moved in and cannot therefore claim either of these things for the required period of time. Crucially, the claim must be in your own name.

Furthermore, you could not demonstrate intention to possess the land without the consent of the owner because you are occupying it by mistake (confusion over the boundary has led to you thinking it is your land - therefore you had no intention to occupy the land against the owner's consent).

So, in all probability, the legal boundary is as shown on the land registry title plan and your neigbour owns the land. Sorry!

Basically, as has been said already, your conveyancer should have picked up on this. You should also go back to the estate agent's particulars and look at the plan. Although these are for identification only, if they are grossly incorrect (like you are missing half your garden) then they may be liable under the Property Misdescriptions Act. It does depend on the size of the land in question and whether there would be any impact on value.

As to the moral side of the question, I would say you are under no obligation to contribute to the cost of a fence as there is no legal requirement to have a fence, but boundary disputes can be very expensive and you might just want to keep the peace. I would suggest you allow the neighbour access to their land but say you are not willing to pay anything toward the cost of providing a new boundary fence.

meames_2

Having been the new neighbour going round to say that the fence was in the wrong place, I can see both sides.

In my case the fence was 1 foot over but about 40 feet in length - a considerable strip. The neighbours said it had been there for years but she had only been in for 5 years. I managed to contact the old owners of both properties (the one before the one I bought from) which was less than 7 years and both said the fence wan't there when they moved out. It is 12 years before a boundary becomes permenant.

After a dreadful argument in which threats towards me were made by her partner and a very nasty letter (hand written from next door) I contact the Institute of Charted surveyors who will give 1 hours free legal advice - so nasty was this letter he gave me an extra 2 hours for free!

It wasn't until she sold the house and I contacted her solicitor to say there would be a dispute that the matter was settled (she and her solictitor were ignoring me hoping the house would be sold before there would be any comeback). I paid for the fence removal and a new fence even though the fence was her boundary.

Good luck with this, it made my first few months in my new home awful!

milvusvestal

This is something you and your conveyancing solicitor ought to have checked before you exchanged contracts.

Where the existing fence is in relation to what's on the Land Registry map is immaterial; it's the latter that shows the true position, and you have no choice other than to have the fence moved to the proper boundary, or agree with your neighbour a price for the piece of land that you use but isn't rightfully yours. It could be that she doesn't need it, and would be happy to settle on a mutually-convenient price. The correct boundary would need to be established with the Land Registry, however, and that will incur a cost. No need for a solicitor to do that. Alternatively, you could have an informal written agreement between you, and place that with the property deeds for use when you or she sells up.

If your neighbour wants the fence-line where it should be, then sharing the cost seems very fair as, by the sound of things, it was a former occupier of your new home who put the fence up in the wrong place.

umpity

Before jumping in, do a little research: don't necessarily take neighbour's word for it.

1) how long was fense in place? if over 12 years, and previous owner (s) used garden, neighbour will have difficulty getting it back (law of limitations regarding land disputes: time delay is 12 years)

2) Is there a history of your neighbour trying to get land back? Even an old letter is of help to them.

3) Land registry has a guarantee scheme to indemnify if there is a mistake on their part

4) as others have said, your solicitor/conveyancer should have picked it up, if it's big.

5) How much land? A foot? A yard?

6) My solicitor cousin says a line on a plan is no proof of exact line of boundary.

So do a little research!

Umpity

aeonf242

Just a thought, everyone is saying that as a good neighbour you should agree to pay towards moving the fence.
...but surely your neighbour should be the one being 'good'?
As the new owner it's not your fault, and the only thing you'll get out of it is less land....
I'd ask her for full details, perhaps in an in/formal letter or email.

If they offended then just say you'd need this in case you have to taken action against the vendors or anyone else in the conveyancing process.

You could always plead poverty having just paid out to move house and say you'll be able to consider something in a year or two when your finances are better :-)

At the end of the day I'd look at what you gain and what you'd lose, if it's a serious amount of land and a large cost to put a new fence up then it might be worth defending yourself a bit.....

As I said good neighbours work both ways, if your neighbours are going to be bad over this then it's not a good indication fro the future when future issues arise e.g. overhanging trees, planning permission, parking, noise, general behaviour...