fixed penalty notice

no-oneknowsme

I have posted this thread on both the insurance board and the motoring board to gain as much advice as possible.


im asking this question on behalf of a Friend of my Husbands so apologies f details are a bit sketchy.

So , Hubbys friend drives a taxi and works alongside my Hubby.

The Friend has told Hubby that he has received some letters from the local council to say:

1) A council official has witnessed the Friend smoking in his taxi.

2) A council official has witnessed the Friend discarding the cigarette butt out of the car window.

The first set of letters was asking for details of the driver at the time of the offence. The next set of letters , received by the Friend was yesterday (I believe) stating that a file is being prepared for each offence and that a fixed penalty notice will be issued in due course for each offence.

This effectively means that the Friend is about to get hit with 2 non endorsable (he thinks?) FPN's.

His question is this: Are these declarable to his taxi insurers? He intends to pay the fines involved and doesnt intend disputing the case at all.

Hes just not sure if he needs to declare them.

If any other details are needed I can get them from the person involved.

Thanks

HappyMJ

Not declareable to the insurers. They aren't fines they are offers of a penalty. You pay the penalty and the matter is dropped. There are no points on his licence. No record of the offence will be recorded with anyone except the council that issued them in the first place.

peter_the_piper

It would be interesting to see under what legislation they are issuing them. If he wants to fight the tickets, if he could, then post also on pepipoo.com, they see a fair few of these, not sure of the outcomes though.

Stroma

Are they allowed to get keeper details from the dvla for not a driving matter? Isn't this along the lines of councils chasing rk of vehicles for their dog fouling in a park etc?

no-oneknowsme

Thanks for all the replies , I will pass them to my Hubby who will then pass them to his mate.

I get the impression that the mate doesnt want to contest the fines for fear of being taken to court etc. Think he just wants to pay them and move on , hopefully remembering in future that he shouldnt be smoking in a works vehicle and chucking litter out the window lol.

Trebor16

This might be a useful thread:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=26780&hl=

kev2012

As a former private hire driver it was made plain as day to us when the new laws came in from 2007 re smoking in the cab. I'm not sure what exact legislation is involved but the posters put up in our office from TFL made it clear of the consequences. I think it is quite a heavy fine of £200 for this. If a driver is a repeat offender thay can have their license suspended or revoked.
Not sure of the rules on getting details of the RK though.
I would have thought that if a council official has logged the number plate then it would seem that's all they need for this.
I wasn't a smoker so it didn't bother me but some of my passengers would plead with me for a quick puff...I always said no as it would be my a** if anyone reported it. I used to pull over if they were desperate on the way back from the airport or something and let them out for 2 mins.
I'm not sure of the law if the car is not being currently used for hire. If you could say another non taxi driver was using the car then maybe you would only get a FPN for littering.
If they have the number plate they must also have the registered taxi driver details. I'm thinking of TFL which runs London,maybe it's different for other authorities if you live elsewhere.
But don't worry,it's not an insurance matter or endorseable,it's comes under health & safety legislation.

no-oneknowsme

Hi Kev and thanks for replying.

I think the fine for smoking in a private hire is around the £80 mark.

The higher penalty seems to be for repeat offenders or for people who dispute the offence and take it to court.

To be honest (and this is in no way a defence for the guy caught) he had just had a telephone call minutes before the warden witnessed him which delivered some very bad news regarding one of his grandchildren and I think he lit up out of the stress of the call. Other than this I dont THINK he would normally smoke in the cab.

As I say , its no excuse and the fella KNOWS this and thats why he isnt planning to dispute the fact or try to wriggle out of paying the fine. He was wrong to smoke and he knows it so is going to take the punishment for it.

Hes more concerned now as he is worried that he will have to tell his insurer and face another penalty (increased premiums etc).

Other posters are saying that the FPN wont have to be declared so I think he will take the penalty and learn from it.

spacey2012

They are asking him to grass himself up.
He has a right to silence.
Use it.

HO87

spacey2012 wrote: »

They are asking him to grass himself up.
He has a right to silence.
Use it.

Not in such a case as this do you. This is poor advice and will result in your friend being summonsed to court and having to deal with an extra offence and open up the probability that he will be subject of greater sanctions.

A formal request from a council to identify the driver is not a demand that the recipient "grasses" themselves up - although that might be the net effect of the demand in the instant case. The requirement is simply that the recipient identifies the driver. There is relevant case law - O'Halloran & Francis v UK [2007] ECHR 544 - and although this dealt with a written requirement from the police the principles applied by the ECHR can equally be applied in the case of council. In essence as having a driving licence is a privilege we forego certain rights along with it.

It is being made clear that the council will issue fixed penalty notices and as these do not carry penalty points then your friend is under no obligation whatsoever to declare these to his insurers. Indeed it is not the FPN that one declares to an insurer but any penalty points that come with them.

As much as we might dislike councils having such powers I'd suggest that your friend takes this on the chin, answers the written requirement for driver details and pays the notices as promptly as he can.

no-oneknowsme

HO87 wrote: »

As much as we might dislike councils having such powers I'd suggest that your friend takes this on the chin, answers the written requirement for driver details and pays the notices as promptly as he can.

This is what I am being told he is planning to do. He knows he was wrong to smoke in the taxi and so he will not be disputing the FPN.

My Husband says that he has already handed the forms into the council stating that he is the registered keeper of the car and is also the only person who drives the car.

I fail to see the point in giving the council the runaround , I mean , they are not just going to roll over and let it drop. If the matter is disputed I would imagine they will force the matter to go to court and this , we know would only make the whole situation a lot worse.

The poor man is already going through a tough time regarding his Grandchild and I assume that he justs wants to take the punishment and let the matter go.

As long as (as everyone has assured me) it doesnt have any effect on his taxi insurance then he will be a happier man. He had worked himself up into a panic thinking he would lose his taxi licence or face higher insurance premiums lol.
I will happily pass the "good news" onto my Husband who will pass it to him tomorrow at work.

Thanks all .