Pit bull?

merlin68

My drug dealer nieghbour has got himself a pitbull or so he keeps telling everybody. Is there anyway of knowing for sure if it's a pitbull or a staffie.
Got me worried, I have a staffie cross, but his doesn't look much different, but he say's it's snappy.
There's a primary school a few doors up and he never walks his dogs on the lead.

krlyr

It doesn't really matter if it is a purebred Pitbull or not because the Dangerous Dogs Act means that a "Pitbull type" is illegal. It is the word, type, that is important here.
Type basically means that the dog fits a number of physical attributes that resemble a Pitbull. I believe it's DEFRA's guide that is used to enforce the law
http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/dogs-guide-enforcers.pdf

• When first viewing the dog it should appear square from the side, and its height to the top of
its shoulders should be the same distance as from the front of its shoulder to the rear point of
its hip.
• Its height to weight ratio should be in proportion.
• Its coat should be short and bristled, (single coated).
• Its head should appear to be wedge shaped when viewed from the side and top but rounded when viewed from the front. The head should be around 2/3 width of shoulders and 25 per cent wider at cheeks than at the base of the skull (this is due to the cheek muscles).
• The distance from the back of the head to between the eyes should be about equal to the distance from between the eyes to the tip of its nose.
• The dog should have a good depth from the top of head to bottom of jaw and a straight box-like muzzle.
• Its eyes should be small and deep-set, triangular when viewed from the side and elliptical from front.
• Its shoulders should be wider than the rib cage at the eighth rib.
• Its elbows should be flat with its front legs running parallel to the spine.
• Its forelegs should be heavy and solid and nearly twice the thickness of the hind legs just below the hock.
• The rib cage should be deep and spring straight out from the spine, it should be elliptical in cross section tapering at the bottom and not ‘barrel’ chested.
• It should have a tail that hangs down like an old fashioned ‘pump handle’ to around the hock.
• It should have a broad hip that allows good attachment of muscles in the hindquarters and hind legs.
• Its knee joint should be in the upper third of the dog’s rear leg, and the bones below that should appear light, fine and springy.
• Overall the dog should have an athletic appearance, the standard makes no mention of ears, colour, height, or weight

DNA tests are available but aren't always accurate - it's not like police using a DNA test - they have to have a sample from the crime scene and a sample from the suspect and can then check they're identical - in dogs, they get a sample from the dog but have to check it against a particular sample/samples from known breeds yet individuals in each breed may not necessary have the same genetic makeup. This is because each dog breed originates from other dog breeds, basically. E.g. the Dobermann is believed to have been bred by combining the German Pinscher, the Beauceron, the Rottweiler, the Thuringian Sylvan Dog, the Greyhound, the Great Dane, the Weimaraner, the German Shorthaired Pointer, the Manchester Terrier, the Old German Shepherd Dog, and the American Pit Bull Terrier - so at which point does a Dobermann genetically become a Dobermann, rather than a Rottweiler cross?
DNA tests aren't used in UK law anyway so they're only really used to satisfy curiousity, I believe there was a recent case with a dog seized that was "of type" and the owners had DNA test results that said otherwise but these weren't taken into consideration because the law isn't against Pitbulls as a breed, but of dogs that are of the Pitbull type.

Unfortunately, this way of categorising illegal dogs means many crossbreeds can fall foul of the law. Staffie crosses can often pick up a combination of measurements that deem them to be 'of type' - crossed with a Labrador, they can often have the longer legs and slightly bigger build. Bred with some Sharpei in there can give the more Pitbull type muzzle, Boxer can exagerrate the height whilst keeping the bull breed look to it and so on. His "Pitbull" may not have an ounce of Pitbull in it, but then again it could. It's not really that relevant - whilst certain breeds can have a slightly higher disposition to certain traits (such as the Staffie to not being so great with other dogs), the Pitbull can be a fantastic family pet in the right hands. Just look at the USA, Pitbulls are legal and are often great family dogs, brilliant with children, fine with other dogs, etc. if that's what they've been exposed to and trained to be. A Pitbull is no more of a weapon than a large Staffie cross, a GSD, an Akita, a Rottweiler or any other large, powerful breed - whatever "weapon" of choice to this kind of person, it is the training that shapes them to act aggressively. Your own dog could be just as much a danger in the hands of someone like him as a supposedly Pitbull.

It sounds like you're concerned about two things - firstly, your own dog looking similar could mean that your dog is deemed of type. Unfortunately there's not much you can do, if he meets the measurements, he's of type. However, one thing that may help support you is any paperwork - was he from a rescue centre? If they are willing to state he is a Staffie cross, that might support your argument if it came to it, but not guaranteed.
Your best bet really is to pass under the radar. Many of type dogs exist in the UK and aren't flagged up so it never becomes an issue. Make sure he's well-trained, well-behaved and causes no reason for concern. Keep him on-lead, make sure he's not making a nuisance by barking, don't allow any behaviour that could be interpreted as aggressive when you may be seen by the public (this could apply even to games of tug or rough and tumble). Equally, do the same for yourself - try not to cause neighbourhood grudges or arguments that might result in someone reporting your dog as an act of revenge.
You might want to consider taking training classes, or perhaps even the Kennel Club "Good Citizen" scheme so you have some formal awards to show your dog is trained to a good level. Keep up to date with vaccinations and veterinary treatment - so that your dog remains in good health (so isn't likely to act aggressively out of pain) and also so the vet can act as a reference to your dog's temperament. Ensure he is neutered and chipped, as per the rules if you had a registered Pitbull dog, as this looks favourable on you. Keep him on-lead where necessary and under good control when off-lead - do not allow him to charge over to other dogs, children, strangers, etc. even if he is friendly as this can look indimidating. Also, keep his appearance friendly - don't use studded leather collars or harnesses but go for fun, colourful collars and leads (but do ensure they are strong and reliable so he remains under your control). Put a bandana on him if it softens his image, you want him as un-intimidating as possible.

You also sound concerned about the safety of children nearby. Remember, deed not breed. You're right to be concerned about a large breed dog that's got a snappy temperament and isn't necessarily kept under control - whether he's Pitbull or not isn't really relevant, other than that a dog his size can do more damage than a Chihuahua. If you feel that this dog really does pose a genuine risk to local children, report it to your local DW or police, but you may want to be clear that you're reporting it for its temperament. If you start scaremongering in the area about dangerous Pitbulls, you may find that backfires on yourself with your own dog.

http://www.doglaw.co.uk/pitbull.php
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=838
has more info on the DDA/Pitbull types.

withabix

merlin68 wrote: »

My drug dealer neighbour......There's a primary school a few doors up

So why are you worried about the type of dog he owns?

Just report him for drug dealing.

con1888

Yep drug dealing is the main issue here.

Even if the dog is a pit bull I wouldn't go reporting that, not the poor dogs fault the owner is a dealer and would only result in the dog being PTS. Deed not breed. Put the dealer down.

gettingready

Yup strange that drug dealer near the school did not bother you but with a dog it is "those poor kids".

merlin68

Considering his been inside more times than i have had hot dinners, and the police are round their all the time. Not really any point in reporting him for dealing. Nothing is done about it.

Person_one

merlin68 wrote: »

Considering his been inside more times than i have had hot dinners, and the police are round their all the time. Not really any point in reporting him for dealing. Nothing is done about it.

If you report the dog, nothing will happen to the human, the dog will be the one that gets punished.

Do you have any reason to think its a dangerous dog other than what it looks like?

krlyr

Person_one wrote: »

If you report the dog, nothing will happen to the human, the dog will be the one that gets punished.

Do you have any reason to think its a dangerous dog other than what it looks like?

The human may not get punished (though I believe the DDA is being amended/made more strict so there are various grades of punishments for owning a dangerous dog) but it may prevent a serious incident. I am certainly not anti-Pitbull (as owner of a GSD and Rottie cross myself, I certainly agree with deed-not-breed) but this is a large, powerful dog in the hands of someone with less than standard morals if he's a drug dealer, and who has admitted that the dog has a tendency to be snappy. A dog like that, not kept under control in the form of a lead, could be a risk to anyone. Even without the snappiness, a dog being walked along roads without a lead poses a risk to drivers and pedestrians in the area - imagine if the dog were to bolt into the road and a driver instinctively veered out of the way but ended up hitting someone? Perhaps a bunch of schoolkids, if it were 3pm near the school?

I would report a dangerous dog of any breed if I felt it could prevent someone getting injured, or worse. Yes, sadly the dog bears the brunt of the punishment, but no one deserves to become the victim of the owner's carelessness.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

merlin68 wrote: »

Considering his been inside more times than i have had hot dinners, and the police are round their all the time. Not really any point in reporting him for dealing. Nothing is done about it.

Odds are then that the dog doesn't meet the 'pit bull' tick boxes, then. Whatever he might like to claim to make him sound tough.

Fosterdog

cheepskate wrote: »

Having been round the APBT circle, lots of people profess to own a Pit or Pit cross. It mans them up ...:) in their own little mind. These are people who obviously have inadequacies in their own life so like to feel a certain status

I once worked with someone who had bought an Alaskan Malamute pup, he told everyone that a malamute is a husky crossed with a wolf, he said it so many times I think he started to believe it himself. He is one of life's braggers who tries to big everything up to more then it is.

He obviously has a lot of inadequacies if he needs to convince people he has a wolf cross (this was before wolf hybrids were allowed in the UK).

I've also met many people claiming to have pit bulls but every one I've actually seen has been either just a large staffie or a staff x american bulldog or similar cross. I doubt that there are any real pit bulls in the UK at all with such strict quarantine laws, there are an awful lot of dogs bred to look as much like one as possible though.

OP I'd be more worried about a drug dealer living so close than what dog he has. I'd personally try to find a way of making sure the parents of the children in the primary school knew the sort of person living so close to the school. Not just because he is trouble but as a dealer he probably has all sorts of wasters in and out all day.

RichardD1970

In my opinion it doesn't matter if it is a Pit Bull or Staffy, or even a Chihuahua.
What makes a dangerous dog is how it is treated and trained.