Electric Heating Systems

Cknocker

Sorry I posted this on another thread, but seems more appropriate here......

My father in law has decided he wants to purchase new "Efficient German Heaters", he asked me my opinion last night and to be honest I a sceptical on massive increases in efficiency, even with a purchase cost of £3,500!!! As that buys a lot of electric!

I've been looking around at different makes which all seem much of a muchness to me, although an electrician today I spoke to recommended Rointe, hence how I've ended up here (From what I can can see Rointe seem to target the trade, unlike say Fischer who seem to target the consumer).

I can see a few people here are even more sceptical than me - I can see some cost saving over a storage heater due to a quicker reaction time meaning less over heating, however I would have thought you are looking at less than 10%. However that would be countered by a loss of cheap rate electric in my opinion.

The issues start when you consider the house construction, which is cavity with no insulation, large areas of window (Although double glazed) and no loft insulation. i.e. high heat loss!!!

My Father in Laws prime problem with Storage Heaters is that they are cold by the evening - in my mind to counter that he needs larger heaters, which with a higher stored heat capacity could be set to release the heat at a slower rate and hence provide useful heat later. Another option would be an E10 Tariff but they seem like hens teeth now!

That becomes a problem in itself, in that I don't think I can find sufficient wall space to fit larger heaters to, which then lead me towards either something like the Dimplex Duoheat or a combined Night Store/Convector, which would enable a boost in the evening.

The next issue is he wanted to fit the "German Heaters" in the bedrooms as well - there is currently no heating in the bedrooms, my own personal thoughts here is that due to the fact that bedrooms are generally unoccupied during the day, the best course of action would be to install timer controlled panel/convector heater which would also be able to use the off peak over night.

Would anyone here recommend this approach or another?

On another note, I have just been looking at the new dimplex quantum heaters, which seem to be going in the right direction - inproving the insulation (hence preventing heat leakage) and the controls.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Read this, a good example of someone just last week facing similar choices, your FIL £3,500 compared to £1,200 install costs. On heating costs your FIL will pay 100% for all electricity including water. The example I offered you has 3x Duo heaters, 6 panel heaters and a tank of boiling water every day at half the cost, and that poster had reasonable single level living and insulation.

- all sparkys, if they are fitting will recommended Roin£e its like installing a kettle, its just plugging in a kettle
- cavity with no insulation, large areas of window, no loft insulation and three times the price for electricity
-'cold by the evening' is because not sufficient storage of the cheap stuff was installed in the first place
- Dimplex Duoheat range [Radiant] is an excellent product, their biggest holds 18.2kWh of stored cheap heat
- the biggest duo-heat they do is a small [by comparison with a 3.4 non-duo] at 2.6kW / 0.54kW
- 'German Heaters' in the bedrooms ridiculous price, panel heaters + thermostat + timer will do the same job, see #44
- 'don't think I can find sufficient wall space' - two choices, (1) store sufficient or (2) pay twice the price for heat & water
- need more reading put the word > snake < into the search button on the TRHS

Ultimately your in laws have three choices (1) lose the aesthetics [ I want glossy magazine radiators ], or (2) lose a lot of unnecessary money on extra compensating energy that will rise year on year, or (3) stay cold .. .. because the storage capacity of cheap stuff and the flexibility of the system was inadequate in the first place, and they want it remain under capacity and inflexible. Changing to a modern duo will occupy no more real estate than the one you chuck out. Read the threads I gave and get back with your questions, best of luck.

NOTE : Do your FIL an extra favour, ring him and check he has not already been in touch, and had a deposit taken and a contract signed .. .. go on ask him quick in case the appointment is tomorrow .. .. ask him !

Cknocker

I've already told him not to touch the German things, although he has a tendancy to be seduced by two things: -

1. They're German, therefore well built and efficient (in his eyes)
2. They're expensive, therefore they must be good (again in his eyes!!)

I guess the big question is this: - am I able to get enough storage out of the Duoheat heaters the largest has a 18.2kWh charge acceptance v a standard combined storage convector of 23.8kWh. This is then complicated by whether or not the insulation is the same on both? i.e. will one leak heat quicker than the other.

Ultimately I want to maximise the amount the storage is used and minimise the additional heat requirement.

The third option, which I'm struggling with research on is the Dimplex Quantum, the only meaningful figures I can find is a small scale trial in Shetland where savings were approximately 10-15% over conventional storage, however there are a huge amount of factors to consider that I don't know.

Cknocker

Richie, I don't know if its because its late or what, I'm failing to grasp your rule of thumb for sizing, are you saying 1kW per metre square of floor area? If so that is collossal! Or am I a factor of 10 out? 100w/m2?

Richie-from-the-Boro

I don't know the age spec of the old, in general the new leaks [nano-tech insulation] less than the existing, the bricks hold marginally more than the existing. The thing is, if and when they leak they leak into the fabric of the room [bricks] and are absorbed only to release heat later and its still insufficient. He's better off economically insulating [free loft] as well as he can and replacing the one living room with a 3.4 non duo / or / 2.6 duo and chucking out 600mm of something and putting in a small additional duo. He needs more storage of the cheap stuff.

AP's just don't like change, sort the insulation, and put in extra storage, and panel any other [non living] area's or pay through the nose. You won't be able to help if the AP's will not have additional storage even if you do spend extra on insulating. Calculating differentials is a waste of brain power the fact of the matter is the dwelling and its efficiency rating is prolly G minus or thereabouts your FIL can never make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.

I'd try my best like you, then let them make their mistakes and back off, tell me is there a MIL ? When you get a chance make sure he hasn't already signed and deposited.

Cknocker

The mother in law is pretty savvy so no worries there.

I think you'd need to see the house to see why you can't get any more heaters in, there is a distinct lack of wall space, not a case of what is there is cluttered - the in laws are quite minimalistic.

macman

I suggest that you ask your father in law to do a forum search on 'Fischer' before he commits to their massively overpriced convectors. Unless he's happy to more than double his heating bills.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Cknocker wrote: »

The mother in law is pretty savvy so no worries there.

I think you'd need to see the house to see why you can't get any more heaters in, there is a distinct lack of wall space, not a case of what is there is cluttered - the in laws are quite minimalistic.

The reason for that 'tongue in cheek' question is its usually the nurturing side of the couple that want the 'glossy mag' at any cost and the male that wants good engineering and durable product. Mind you males of our species including me bought betamax and a minidisc players by the millions.

All electric resistance elements are 100% efficient at turning electricity into heat, their 60% energy saving claims are true in the exact same way that if your FIL turned his storage heater down 60% that would also be true. The firm you mentioned at least publish their prices, they are about 30% cheaper at trade, I notice an unusual 2 year warranty on the electronics side of their product .. .. that shows no faith in the quality of their own chosen manufacturing components.

All these hybrids do is design in circulation over radiation making speedier a flow of heat, this is in turn moderated electronically, at around 4Hz the elements are off 25% of the time, this reduces the clicking on an off of stat, as does the intrinsic latency of the oil or any other chosen introduced material. None of this of course will produce a 60% saving, the only way to use 60% less leccy is to use 60% less leccy.

chris1973

A room will always require a fixed amount of heat depending on its size, level of insulaton etc. You can calculate this by using one of the many online room size heat calculators.

However the amount of heat that a room needs will not change just because you place a revolutionary new form of heating in it, if a room requires 4kw of heat, then you need to put 4kw worth of heat into it, in order for it to become (and stay) warm. This figure will remain the same, whether you burn wood, electricity, gas, horse manure or this new kind of snake oil to produce it

There are many 'Energy Efficient' heaters on the market which just means that they are low wattaged and consume less electricity. However they will also put less heat out. So yes your Electricity bills will be lower but your room will be colder.

So if you have a 650w heater then it will put out 650 watts worth of heat, as its not Paul Daniels and so it cannot conjure up an extra 500watts from nothing, the only way it can output extra heat is to input extra power from the mains.

No smoke and mirrors - No pack drill just basic facts

Unfortunately, if you output 650 watts of heat into a room whose size requires 3000 watts, then obviously you'll also need to wear a coat. Equally if the room loses 1kw worth of heat every hour through poor insulation or natural ventilation then it won't warm up at all, and that 650 watts worth of electricity (0.65 kw per hour) won't be doing or achieving anything as the room is constantly losing more than you are inputting, so you may as well just plug it in and leave it out in the Garden!.

happyskyper

Avoid these heaters for sure.. A complete gas refit including combi boilers thermostats and radiators is fraction of the said cost...
They are rip off merchants praying on the elderly and gullible.
When I called I asked them to pick a product.. Pick any size heater in their range and give me the RRP of it... Manager said she did not know it and blah blah blah blah.... Ignore them (fischer future heat uk) and let them die a slow death od dolphin bathrooms... Remember what joke they were with their direct selling strategy?