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GeorgeHowell wrote: »"But my whole point was the initial improvement within the first 20 years after the revolution, . No wonder there were many new members of western communist parties and even the fermentation of treachery in the establishment.
This was what was happening in GB then."
Fair point. But of course the subsequent lessons of history have now brought us to a point where anyone who is a Marxist is an idiot.
It's not really a fair point IMO. By the late 1920s, the policy of collectivization that killed 20,000,000 in the Soviet Union by itself had been introduced and in 1930 over 250,000 peasant farmers were sent to the Gulag alone, most of whom would not survive the Gulag regime which was much the same idea as the early Nazi work camps where you extract as much work from inmates while keeping them on a starvation diet. You beat them and keep their meager rations from them to work themselves to death.
All parts of the Communist Soviet Union at all times were brutal and indefensible. Don't fall for the propaganda, they claim this bit or that bit was ok. None of it was. From the October Revolution onwards the story of Soviet Communism was one of betrayal, brutality and theft by the state from the individual.0 -
Yes that true too. But the original post was a fair point in that what was happening, and visible to the outside world, provided an incentive for left leaning types to admire the fledgling communist Russia. They would have been either ignorant of its brutality, or willing to shut their eyes to it in that way that lefties do when confronted by anything 'inconvenient'.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »They would have been either ignorant of its brutality, or willing to shut their eyes to it in that way that lefties do when confronted by anything 'inconvenient'.
Not only Lefties.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers visible or invisible giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the worlds wealthiest and most prosperous people' Margaret Thatcher0 -
The exception proves the rule -- look how long he lasted, and look who took over from him.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »The exception proves the rule -- look how long he lasted, and look who took over from him.
True
http://ww2history.com/key_moments/Eastern/Churchill_meets_Stalin_in_MoscowThe Soviet leader laughed and joked (even if in the process he revealed the ruthlessness of his regime, by openly admitting that the Communists had killed the Soviet Kulaks, the rich peasants). But still, thought Churchill, Stalin had at last allowed a glimpse into the more intimate side of his character. When Churchill returned to his dacha, at three o’clock in the morning, he was, according to Clark Kerr, in ‘triumphant mood’. He lay on a sofa and announced that he had ‘cemented a friendship’ with Stalin, and that it was a ‘pleasure’ to work with ‘that great man’.vi'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers visible or invisible giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the worlds wealthiest and most prosperous people' Margaret Thatcher0 -
Sir Winston always did have a great sense of irony.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
GeorgeHowell wrote: »Sir Winston always did have a great sense of irony.
More likely it didn't bother him that Stalin had bumped off the Kulaks.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers visible or invisible giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the worlds wealthiest and most prosperous people' Margaret Thatcher0 -
More likely it didn't bother him that Stalin had bumped off the Kulaks.
There are no grounds for saying that at all. He knew that Stalin was a monster running a gangster regime. But at the end of WWII he had to make the best of it, with little help from Roosevelt. The remarks you quoted were allegedly made in private and are reported via a third party.
The left are terrified of strong right of centre leaders who win over the public, which is why they will relentlessly try to denigrate the reputations of people like Churchill and Thatcher.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
More likely it didn't bother him that Stalin had bumped off the Kulaks.
Quite likely. Winnie was a very 'pragmatic' man.
He was a great man and a flawed man in equal measures. He was a hopeless alcoholic and possibly the greatest orator in Britain in the C20th. He also wrote perhaps the greatest historical work on British history.
He was loved and loathed. If you go to Chartwell there is an amazing photograph of Churchill in an open topped car being driven through the streets of Marseille. There is love on the faces of the people there, they believe that this is one of the men that led them to freedom. In this crowd a working man in a vest (a docker I would imagine from his dress and body shape) leans across and light's Winnie's cigar for him, a gesture he accepts. A month or 2 later his Conservative Party was voted out of office.
Many Aussies hate Mr Churchill. He sent a lot of ANZACs to their deaths.0 -
Many Aussies hate Mr Churchill. He sent a lot of ANZACs to their deaths.
Unfortunately he was not exactly a military genius as illustrated when he telegraphed the Gallipoli landings by ordering the shelling of the Dardenelles coast :eek:'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers visible or invisible giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the worlds wealthiest and most prosperous people' Margaret Thatcher0
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