Leave left over - not allowed to carry over but cant take it

SarEl

samwich1979 wrote: »

Well the hospital i work in lets the staff choose their holidays when they want them and then they either get given those dates or not depending on how many people are off that week.
I was not saying they can just take it and the department has to deal with it!

We also get many opportunities to take short notice days off if the department is quiet.

Never heard of having to book them all in advance, it just does not work in my opinion and this is perhaps why the OP's wife has ended up with this problem.

AGAIN it is the problem of the workplace managers to sort this problem and his wife needs to tell them if they cannot grant her annual leave between now and April she will take it to the union(providing she is in one) and make sure she gets it taken over to the next years entitlement.

You may not have heard of it being done like this. Your hospital may not do it like this. The fact is that the OP is describing a place were it does happen like this! Because it has. You did say that she can take her leave when she wants provided she gives enough notice - she can't, the law says she can't, and that is the problem the OP is asking about.

zzzLazyDaisy

Just to throw an additional wrinkle into the mix....

Following the Stringer case, if an employee is unable to take statutory holiday due to sick leave, those holiday days can be carried forward.

Summary of the rules re holiday entitlement here (scroll right down to the last para if you wish to skip all the case law etc)

http://www.nhsemployers.org/EMPLOYMENTPOLICYANDPRACTICE/UKEMPLOYMENTPRACTICE/Pages/AccrualofStatutoryAnnualLeaveonLongtermSickLeave.aspx

Edit - given that this is advice produced specifically for NHS employers, it would be reasonable to suppose that OP's HR dept should be aware of it.....

getmore4less

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

Just to throw an additional wrinkle into the mix....

Following the Stringer case, if an employee is unable to take statutory holiday due to sick leave, those holiday days can be carried forward.

Summary of the rules re holiday entitlement here (scroll right down to the last para if you wish to skip all the case law etc)

http://www.nhsemployers.org/EMPLOYMENTPOLICYANDPRACTICE/UKEMPLOYMENTPRACTICE/Pages/AccrualofStatutoryAnnualLeaveonLongtermSickLeave.aspx

Edit - given that this is advice produced specifically for NHS employers, it would be reasonable to suppose that OP's HR dept should be aware of it.....

But that does not apply to this case where the sick did not go over the year and there is time to take it.

Conveniently the rules mean that if you are resued leave and then go sick in the last days of the holiday year you can carry over the leave.


My old boss had the right idea on annual leave, get people to use it up ASAP, there never is a good time so the sooner you hve none left the better.

Uncertain

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

Edit - given that this is advice produced specifically for NHS employers, it would be reasonable to suppose that OP's HR dept should be aware of it.....

Such confidence!

My experience of some other large organisations' HR departments makes me wonder how many of them manage to hold a job down!

zzzLazyDaisy

Uncertain wrote: »

Such confidence!

My experience of some other large organisations' HR departments makes me wonder how many of them manage to hold a job down!

Sorry, I forget that sarcasm doesn't fly... should have 'd



Dx

SarEl

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

Just to throw an additional wrinkle into the mix....

Following the Stringer case, if an employee is unable to take statutory holiday due to sick leave, those holiday days can be carried forward.

Summary of the rules re holiday entitlement here (scroll right down to the last para if you wish to skip all the case law etc)

http://www.nhsemployers.org/EMPLOYMENTPOLICYANDPRACTICE/UKEMPLOYMENTPRACTICE/Pages/AccrualofStatutoryAnnualLeaveonLongtermSickLeave.aspx

Edit - given that this is advice produced specifically for NHS employers, it would be reasonable to suppose that OP's HR dept should be aware of it.....

Yes I thought we'd covered that (assuming it's statutory leave) - but the problem is that it is not sickness that is now preventing her from taking it. It ought to be perfectly possible to take 7 days leave between now and the end of March (setting aside the fact that managers appear to be playing silly **** about it!). The fact that the Op had a couple of weeks off sick (or whatever it was) some time during the year when they had previously booked holiday doesn't automatically allow them to carry it over if they could reasonably have taken it during the leave year and the issue is that they can't book it when they want to take it. The obvious thing to do, as someone else suggested, is to say that if they can't have their choice due to staffing issues, then when would the employer like them to take it - if the employer then refuses leave it is their decision and clear cut.

zzzLazyDaisy

getmore4less wrote: »

But that does not apply to this case where the sick did not go over the year and there is time to take it.

I agree - but the employer must allow the employee to take that holiday if the employee requests it. It seems from the the OP that the employee lost holiday through sick leave, and is now asking to take it but the employer is refusing to allow this.

Pereda/ANGED states that:

• Where a worker’s prearranged statutory holiday coincides with a period of sick leave (either because the worker becomes unfit for work before the holiday or during it), the worker has the option to designate an alternative period for the exercise of their holiday entitlement.
• So, although workers may be allowed to take holiday during sick leave, if they do not wish to do so the holiday must be granted at a different time (even if this means carrying it over to the next leave year).

(my bold)

zzzLazyDaisy

SarEl wrote: »

(setting aside the fact that managers appear to be playing silly **** about it!). .

Yes I agree with you in principle, it was this ^^^^ point I was seeking to address

SarEl

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

I agree - but the employer must allow the employee to take that holiday if the employee requests it. It seems from the the OP that the employee lost holiday through sick leave, and is now asking to take it but the employer is refusing to allow this.

Pereda/ANGED states that:

• Where a worker’s prearranged statutory holiday coincides with a period of sick leave (either because the worker becomes unfit for work before the holiday or during it), the worker has the option to designate an alternative period for the exercise of their holiday entitlement.
• So, although workers may be allowed to take holiday during sick leave, if they do not wish to do so the holiday must be granted at a different time (even if this means carrying it over to the next leave year).

(my bold)

Interesting. Mostly because that is not actually what it said! That is a very misleading and inaccurate rendition of the ruling. In my experience the NHS are generally slightly more lax in their interpretation of many things and may interpret the law more leniently, but I had a look and I am quite shocked they would be issuing this as legal advice!

zzzLazyDaisy

SarEl wrote: »

Interesting. Mostly because that is not actually what it said! That is a very misleading and inaccurate rendition of the ruling. In my experience the NHS are generally slightly more lax in their interpretation of many things and may interpret the law more leniently, but I had a look and I am quite shocked they would be issuing this as legal advice!

Ah, thanks for that. I didn't check the case law, because (it appears that) OP's wife works for NHS, and this is guidance for NHS employers (my bad!)