South West Trains. Liars? Thieves? Generally unhelpful.

Stigy

prowla wrote: »

Sure - the word "offence" is what I find offensive, and there will always be jobsworths.

My point, which I'm sure you grasp, is that the "offence" in the first place is contrived, and could be handled in a much more customer friendly way.

The companies do it because they feel like their customer base has no other choice, and so they don't need to try; in fact they can be as arsey as they like and it won't matter a jot.

What I don't think you see, is the bigger picture.

Had the OP not passed several places at which they could have bought a ticket, maybe said ticket would have been excessed. Or maybe not. Who knows?

What's to say that this person wasn't trying their luck? The idea of the Penalty Fare is that of a civil remedy for a criminal matter. It's meant as a detterent against fare evasion and is not meant to be issued where an offender is suspected of committing fraud. That's what prosecutions are for. If somebody wont accept a Penalty Fare they're stabbing themselves in the foot really, as it'll more than likely end up in court because of their ignorance. 9 out of 10 times, if a matter like this goes to court, then the TOC seldom loses, especially if using the Byelaws, whereby the only defence is if you couldn't buy a ticket due to lack of facilities or similar.

It's not about being a jobsworth, it's about being good at your job. Most staff will listen to the customer before deciding what to do, and once they've semi-decided, they'll normally request the name and address details and verify them to see what, if any, previous there is.

olly300

Livingthedream wrote: »

A tip for yourself or others in the future, if you can't get a ticket because the ticket machine is broken or the ticket office shut then take a picture with your mobile of the office/machine if your phone has no date/time stamp, post it on facebook as this will record the time. If then the nasty man gives you a Penalty fare, appeal it with the photo evidence.

Even take a picture of the packed train to show that you couldn't get to the guard.

It's against railway byelaws to take photographs on rail company premises without the train company's permission.

This means if you take photographs of the ticket machine and packed train you risk being prosecuted.

A commuter on Southern was threatened with prosecution for taking photographs to show how crowded his trains were simply because they were published online. The Metro and a few other papers took up his case and published the pictures almost continuously until the rail company backed down.

A young man at my local station was taking photographs of the trees lining the opposite platform as we have parakeets and other birds in them. A SWT ticket hall guy was opening the ticket hall and saw him, implied the young man was a terrorist and threatened to call the police.

Two older men intervened and had a shouting match with the SWT guy until he retreated into the ticket hall.

The SWT guy quickly realised he was on to a losing battle once the date was mentioned as it was Remembrance Sunday.

Rail_Staff

It is not a byelaw offence to take pictures, the following is taken from the National Rail Enquiries site:

"Photography

Taking photographs on stations is permitted providing it is for personal use. For any commercial photography, prior permission must be sought from the appropriate train operator or, from Network Rail at their 17 major stations."

On the subject of guards and ticketing facilities I believe half of SWT's guards are termed 'non-commercial' in that they are not trained in ticketing matters in order that they are able to fully concentrate on the most important job which is to operate the train safely and in particular operate the doors safely. On longer distance routes where station stops are further apart guards have time to issue tickets and deal more with customer service and retail matters.

giraffe69

able to fully concentrate on the most important job which is to operate the train safely and in particular operate the doors safely.

Oh please. They have to spend all their time making sure that the automatic doors work automatically?

prowla

Stigy wrote: »

What I don't think you see, is the bigger picture.

Had the OP not passed several places at which they could have bought a ticket, maybe said ticket would have been excessed. Or maybe not. Who knows?

What's to say that this person wasn't trying their luck? The idea of the Penalty Fare is that of a civil remedy for a criminal matter. It's meant as a detterent against fare evasion and is not meant to be issued where an offender is suspected of committing fraud. That's what prosecutions are for. If somebody wont accept a Penalty Fare they're stabbing themselves in the foot really, as it'll more than likely end up in court because of their ignorance. 9 out of 10 times, if a matter like this goes to court, then the TOC seldom loses, especially if using the Byelaws, whereby the only defence is if you couldn't buy a ticket due to lack of facilities or similar.

It's not about being a jobsworth, it's about being good at your job. Most staff will listen to the customer before deciding what to do, and once they've semi-decided, they'll normally request the name and address details and verify them to see what, if any, previous there is.

And you don't see the bigger bigger picture...

It should be about customers and services rather than rules is rules.

As I said, the reason they don't bother with that is because they believe they have a captive market.

Me, I used to work in the smoke, and one of the deciding factors in me leaving that job was the attitude of the SWT staff.

You also seem to keep implying that the OP was trying their luck.

In the case of Reading station that I have mentioned as having a better approach, the Excess Fares counter is before the barriers, so therefore you could argue that getting to the barriers with an invalid ticket would imply that you had attempted to avoid paying.

In the case of Waterloo there is no such counter, and the officers on the platform are that 1st opportunity on getting off the train.

Of course the OP could have got off at Clapham or any other station en-route and bought another ticket for the remainder, but what is wrong with expecting to be able to pay the excess at the destination?

timbo58

The excess fares office at Reading is immediately next to the front barriers and would/will refuse to sell an excess fare if the person is liable to a PF if they have someone who can issue a PF there in attendance.

The problem with buying a ticket for the remainder of the journey is that it is against the PF rules that the TOC has clearly publicised:

i.e. no valid ticket for the journey already made- straight choice:

PF
report for Prosecution

The only exceptions for this is where there is/has been no opportunity to purchase said valid ticket during the travellers journey.

If there have been NO ticket facilities at all anywhere from the start station to the moment they reach the barriers then they can purchase or excess any ticket they wish.

No one I can see has implied the OP is guilty of fare evasion (or an attempt at it), merely that he was rightly in their opinion given a PF.

It's very straightforward although as you rightly say it gives no opportunity for someone who honestly intended to pay a fare although as others have said: had he not waited until the very very last person he could have approached regarding the ticket he may well have given the staff member the chance of getting him an excess fare whether he was actually entitled to do this by that point or not.

Unfortunately he has done here exactly what those intending not to pay until challeneged do 'day in day out' it is people like that the OP has to blame for the reason PFs were introduced and for the manner in which he was dealt with.

Livingthedream

olly300 wrote: »

It's against railway byelaws to take photographs on rail company premises without the train company's permission.

IIRC, the byelaws only mention about flash photography and tripods and if the photos are for private use then permission isn't required and in my opinion keeping yourself from getting a Penalty fare is for private use.

However, one thing to point out, you can't take photos of any security equipment ie CCTV camera.

Stigy

Livingthedream wrote: »

IIRC, the byelaws only mention about flash photography and tripods and if the photos are for private use then permission isn't required and in my opinion keeping yourself from getting a Penalty fare is for private use.

However, one thing to point out, you can't take photos of any security equipment ie CCTV camera.

It's acceptable to take photos on railway property as you say, and is a misconception that it's against the law. The only reason taking photos of CCTV etc is instantly suspicious is because of terrorism. Even this is not illegal in itself but would be reasonable for staff or police to question you if spotted in this way. It would probably be grounds for the police to look at the photos too.

I'd be interested to see why the OP outlined their statement in bold, as it seems it was quoted from somewhere?

prowla

timbo58 wrote: »

The excess fares office at Reading is immediately next to the front barriers and would/will refuse to sell an excess fare if the person is liable to a PF if they have someone who can issue a PF there in attendance.

The problem with buying a ticket for the remainder of the journey is that it is against the PF rules that the TOC has clearly publicised:

i.e. no valid ticket for the journey already made- straight choice:

PF
report for Prosecution

The only exceptions for this is where there is/has been no opportunity to purchase said valid ticket during the travellers journey.

If there have been NO ticket facilities at all anywhere from the start station to the moment they reach the barriers then they can purchase or excess any ticket they wish.

No one I can see has implied the OP is guilty of fare evasion (or an attempt at it), merely that he was rightly in their opinion given a PF.

It's very straightforward although as you rightly say it gives no opportunity for someone who honestly intended to pay a fare although as others have said: had he not waited until the very very last person he could have approached regarding the ticket he may well have given the staff member the chance of getting him an excess fare whether he was actually entitled to do this by that point or not.

Unfortunately he has done here exactly what those intending not to pay until challeneged do 'day in day out' it is people like that the OP has to blame for the reason PFs were introduced and for the manner in which he was dealt with.

I guess it's all down to your viewpoint of what the rail service should provide.

I feel that the approach should be to have a system that makes things as convenient as they can for the customer, whereas the bulk of opinion seems to suggest that the appropriate system is to make things difficult and treat passengers as potential thieving scallys and nab them when they can.

Stigy

prowla wrote: »

Of course the OP could have got off at Clapham or any other station en-route and bought another ticket for the remainder, but what is wrong with expecting to be able to pay the excess at the destination?

I really don't see how the railway has obtained this blanket belief by its users that it's perfectly acceptable to pay after using the service. I wasn't suggesting that the OP was trying their luck, but have heard all manner of stories before in my job, so much so that I reserve the right to remain sceptical.