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South West Trains. Liars? Thieves? Generally unhelpful.
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dangermax
Posts: 1 Newbie
To whom it may concern
On 13 January 2012, I travelled from Guildford to Waterloo despite my Season ticket only covering Guildford to Clapham Junction. I always intended to pay for the Clapham Junction to Waterloo part of the journey but there was no guard on the train to buy a ticket from. Previously I had bought a ticket in similar circumstances once I had arrived at Waterloo; I was unaware that this was not acceptable.
When I got to Waterloo I approached South West Trains employee, xxxxx xxxx, and asked him if I could pay the £2.80 to cover the additional distance I had travelled beyond the jurisdiction of my season pass. Without even replying to my request, Mr xxxx told me he was going to charge me a penalty fare from my Guildford. I refused to pay this as I thought that if I were to pay a penalty fare it should be from Clapham Junction to Waterloo. This interaction took almost an hour as Mr xxxx took notes. These notes were mostly correct but did not state the fact that initially I approached him. I asked to speak to Mr xxxx’s manager and he replied that “it wasn’t my problem”. At the end of the interaction Mr xxxx took my travel card with a remaining value of £200.10. Mr xxxx told me that I could get a replacement from the ticket office – this was not true.
The following day I wrote to South West Trains to let them know Mr xxxx had been misleading when taking his notes. South West Trains ignored my side of the story and started legal proceedings. I wrote to South West Trains Customer Relations department and South West Trains Legal department, both of which did not consider that Mr xxxx was deliberately misleading in his notes – although they could have checked on their CCTV footage as to whether Mr xxxx’s notes were accurate. I did not think the situation merited worth taking time off work so paid £80 to avoid going to court – this was described by South West Trains as a “generous offer”.
Ultimately, I was forced to pay £280.10 when I had proactively approached a South West Trains member of staff to pay £2.80. Mr xxxx’s dishonesty has been hidden behind the South West Trains legal team’s knowledge that customers do not want to go to court over £80. I accept that I was travelling illegally but I feel that the resulting outcome is far beyond the scope of the offence.
I have contacted both Passenger Focus and London Travel Watch, both of who told me this was outside of their jurisdiction. I also sent an email to Sir Brian Souter without response.
I seem to exhausted my resources to get a refund on the season card, so I just want to let readers know the unscrupulous behaviour that this company exhibits. I would also advise people not to hand over their season guard to any South West Train employee as this will not benefit you in any way.
Thank you for reading
On 13 January 2012, I travelled from Guildford to Waterloo despite my Season ticket only covering Guildford to Clapham Junction. I always intended to pay for the Clapham Junction to Waterloo part of the journey but there was no guard on the train to buy a ticket from. Previously I had bought a ticket in similar circumstances once I had arrived at Waterloo; I was unaware that this was not acceptable.
When I got to Waterloo I approached South West Trains employee, xxxxx xxxx, and asked him if I could pay the £2.80 to cover the additional distance I had travelled beyond the jurisdiction of my season pass. Without even replying to my request, Mr xxxx told me he was going to charge me a penalty fare from my Guildford. I refused to pay this as I thought that if I were to pay a penalty fare it should be from Clapham Junction to Waterloo. This interaction took almost an hour as Mr xxxx took notes. These notes were mostly correct but did not state the fact that initially I approached him. I asked to speak to Mr xxxx’s manager and he replied that “it wasn’t my problem”. At the end of the interaction Mr xxxx took my travel card with a remaining value of £200.10. Mr xxxx told me that I could get a replacement from the ticket office – this was not true.
The following day I wrote to South West Trains to let them know Mr xxxx had been misleading when taking his notes. South West Trains ignored my side of the story and started legal proceedings. I wrote to South West Trains Customer Relations department and South West Trains Legal department, both of which did not consider that Mr xxxx was deliberately misleading in his notes – although they could have checked on their CCTV footage as to whether Mr xxxx’s notes were accurate. I did not think the situation merited worth taking time off work so paid £80 to avoid going to court – this was described by South West Trains as a “generous offer”.
Ultimately, I was forced to pay £280.10 when I had proactively approached a South West Trains member of staff to pay £2.80. Mr xxxx’s dishonesty has been hidden behind the South West Trains legal team’s knowledge that customers do not want to go to court over £80. I accept that I was travelling illegally but I feel that the resulting outcome is far beyond the scope of the offence.
I have contacted both Passenger Focus and London Travel Watch, both of who told me this was outside of their jurisdiction. I also sent an email to Sir Brian Souter without response.
I seem to exhausted my resources to get a refund on the season card, so I just want to let readers know the unscrupulous behaviour that this company exhibits. I would also advise people not to hand over their season guard to any South West Train employee as this will not benefit you in any way.
Thank you for reading
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Comments
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I always intended to pay for the Clapham Junction to Waterloo part of the journey
They all say that! Why is it so hard to buy the correct ticket for the journey?0 -
There is a ticket office at Guildford.On 13 January 2012, I travelled from Guildford to Waterloo despite my Season ticket only covering Guildford to Clapham Junction. I always intended to pay for the Clapham Junction to Waterloo part of the journey but there was no guard on the train to buy a ticket from.
They would've happily sold you a ticket from Clapham Junc to Waterloo.
Did you travel via Woking?
There is always a guard on those services.0 -
You got it wrong, ignorance is no defence.
You are required to buy a ticket for the entire journey before boarding.
Did the train even stop at Clapham Junction? If not, it's a more serious offence as you had no ticket at all.
It does sound like they might have been heavy-handed, considering it was a season ticket, and a relatively expensive one, so not likely to be deliberate persistent fare evasion, but it seems like you should have sought help many months ago about this matter - it's nearly 2013 now.0 -
Because it is a season ticket being combined with a point to point fare it is not a more serious offence.
Indeed the offence is always of the same severity whether it is a 5p ticket or hundreds of £.
The OP should have bought before boarding or purchased a Permit to Travel.0 -
I think that the liability should have been for the unpaid part of the journey (ie. Clapham to Waterloo), and indeed I've done something similar, staying on the train to Reading when my ticket was only to one of the earlier stations on the line - I just went up to a counter and paid the difference.
The rail firms should allow this anyway, rather than treating honest people as criminals.0 -
I did not think the situation merited worth taking time off work so paid £80 to avoid going to court – this was described by South West Trains as a “generous offer”.
You accepted the penalty / outcome. You had a chance to dispute it in the appropriate way, but decided not to.
Bad choice, but it was the one you made. :cool:0 -
I think that the liability should have been for the unpaid part of the journey (ie. Clapham to Waterloo), and indeed I've done something similar, staying on the train to Reading when my ticket was only to one of the earlier stations on the line - I just went up to a counter and paid the difference.
The rail firms should allow this anyway, rather than treating honest people as criminals.prowla
You may think that. The Government, which sets out the conditions for rail franchises thinks differently. All Govt rail franchises are subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (see link below). At the very start of this document the following is stated:
"When you buy a ticket to travel on scheduled services on the National Rail Network you make an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains the ticket allows you to use.
This introduction summarises the key rights and obligations within that agreement. You should read the Conditions carefully so you know what you have paid for and what is expected of you.
When you are present in or using stations, train services and other facilities on the National Rail Network, you must also comply with the Byelaws."
Part 1 para 2 is as follows:
"2. Requirement to hold a ticket
[FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light][FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light]
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make, unless the circumstances set out in (b) (i) or (ii) below apply.
Train Companies will make tickets and reservations available at stations, over the internet or by telephone as appropriate. Where there are no facilities for buying a ticket at the station, tickets will be available for sale during or at the end of your journey.[FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light][FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light][FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light]
Train Companies will offer reservations (where applicable) and tickets to disabled persons and persons with reduced mobility at no additional cost.
If you travel in a train
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either:
(i) at the station where you started your journey, there was no ticket office open
and
there were no self- service ticket machines or no self-service ticket machines were in full working order
and
in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel issuing machine was in full working order
OR
(ii) the notices and other publications issued by the Train Company in whose train you are travelling indicate that you can buy tickets in that train.
In circumstances where (i) or (ii) apply, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.
Special arrangements may apply if you are disabled. You will find details of these arrangements in each Train Company’s ‘Disabled People’s Protection Policy’.
For the purposes of this Condition, and Conditions 4, 39 and 41, "full single fare or full return fare" means the highest priced single or (if requested by the passenger) return fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making."[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]
My bold explains why the OP had problems. A passenger is obliged, if there is an open ticket office or working ticket machine, to buy a ticket covering the whole of their journey before they travel (unless there is a notice or similar removing that obligation).
My bold and italics explains why the OP would be charged for the whole journey as opposed to that part for which the season ticket was not valid.
I hope this is helpful albeit probably not what you wish to hear.0 -
I did not think the situation merited worth taking time off work so paid £80 to avoid going to court – this was described by South West Trains as a “generous offer”.
That is indeed a generous offer, £80 would be the least of your worries if it had gone to court.. At the end of the interaction Mr xxxx took my travel card with a remaining value of £200.10. Mr xxxx told me that I could get a replacement from the ticket office – this was not true.
Over riding a season ticket is a very common fare evasion scam, all I can think of is that Mr xxxx thought this was the case and confiscated the season ticket as evidence, ie if SWT wanted to prosecute you for fare evasion.Ultimately, I was forced to pay £280.10 when I had proactively approached a South West Trains member of staff to pay £2.80. Mr xxxx’s dishonesty has been hidden behind the South West Trains legal team’s knowledge that customers do not want to go to court over £80.
As you have settled out of court, you should be entitled to your season ticket back, I would write to SWT demanding it back, I would also chance my arm and demand the lost days back as recompense. If they drag their heels or say no then there's always a small claim court.Whoa! This image violates our terms of use and has been removed from view0 -
Oh yes - I am aware that there are plenty of rules and small print.WickedWolfie wrote: »prowla
You may think that. The Government, which sets out the conditions for rail franchises thinks differently. All Govt rail franchises are subject to the National Rail Conditionsof Carriage (see link below). At the very start of this document the following is stated:
"When you buy a ticket to travel on scheduled services on the National Rail Network you make an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains the ticket allows you to use.
This introduction summarises the key rights and obligations within that agreement. You should read the Conditions carefully so you know what you have paid for and what is expected of you.
When you are present in or using stations, train services and other facilities on the National Rail Network, you must also comply with the Byelaws."
Part 1 para 2 is as follows:
"2. Requirement to hold a ticket
[FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light][FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light]
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make, unless the circumstances set out in (b) (i) or (ii) below apply.
Train Companies will make tickets and reservations available at stations, over the internet or by telephone as appropriate. Where there are no facilities for buying a ticket at the station, tickets will be available for sale during or at the end of your journey.[FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light][FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light][FONT=Univers 45 Light,Univers 45 Light]
Train Companies will offer reservations (where applicable) and tickets to disabled persons and persons with reduced mobility at no additional cost.
If you travel in a train
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either:
(i) at the station where you started your journey, there was no ticket office open
and
there were no self- service ticket machines or no self-service ticket machines were in full working order
and
in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel issuing machine was in full working order
OR
(ii) the notices and other publications issued by the Train Company in whose train you are travelling indicate that you can buy tickets in that train.
In circumstances where (i) or (ii) apply, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.
Special arrangements may apply if you are disabled. You will find details of these arrangements in each Train Company’s ‘Disabled People’s Protection Policy’.
For the purposes of this Condition, and Conditions 4, 39 and 41, "full single fare or full return fare" means the highest priced single or (if requested by the passenger) return fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making."[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]
My bold explains why the OP had problems. A passenger is obliged, if there is an open ticket office or working ticket machine, to buy a ticket covering the whole of their journey before they travel (unless there is a notice or similar removing that obligation).
My bold and italics explains why the OP would be charged for the whole journey as opposed to that part for which the season ticket was not valid.
I hope this is helpful albeit probably not what you wish to hear.
I guess it's because they have contrived to keep the service over-subscribed, and so don't need to worry about customer retention.
My opinion (and this is a discussion thread, right?) is that the balance is wrong.
There should be no issue with people needing to extend their journey and pay the difference - what is wrong with that?
The OP says that they approached the inspector to do that. I have actually done it myself without issue on one occasion (and only one occasion - in my case I was on the train and decided to stay on to the next big town to do some shopping) within the past 5 years, so the policy evidently varies.
Neither the OP not myself had any intention of defrauding or anything, and there is no reason why the system should not allow for it.
All of this jobsworth rules-is-rules and pickiness has no value.0 -
Oh yes - I am aware that there are plenty of rules and small print.
I guess it's because they have contrived to keep the service over-subscribed, and so don't need to worry about customer retention.
My opinion (and this is a discussion thread, right?) is that the balance is wrong.
There should be no issue with people needing to extend their journey and pay the difference - what is wrong with that?
The OP says that they approached the inspector to do that. I have actually done it myself without issue on one occasion (and only one occasion - in my case I was on the train and decided to stay on to the next big town to do some shopping) within the past 5 years, so the policy evidently varies.
Neither the OP not myself had any intention of defrauding or anything, and there is no reason why the system should not allow for it.
All of this jobsworth rules-is-rules and pickiness has no value.
In an ideal world I agree with you. However, many people do intend to defraud the train companies and they tend not to go around with big signs advertising their dishonesty, so how can staff tell the difference between them and ordinary passengers. The quick answer is that often they can't and so the honest but perhaps ill-informed get swept up with the dishonest.
The post before you (rightly) says that overriding season tickets is a regular fare con, as is doughnutting (having tickets for the start and the end of the journey with a gap - often large - in the middle), the latter exposes the limitations of ticket gates.....0
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