Need a planning expert - Planning enforcement

OneYorkshireLass

-Didn't know where to ask this question-

Here's the problem - A council-owned outdoor area required planning permission for certain activities, and the planning decision gave certain legal conditions (such as no activity after 9pm) yet it is being used after 9pm.

The planning officer says the legal route of enforcing the condition is not applicable as it is an 'internal matter'.

Is this a load of old baloney? Surely if conditions were applied to the planning decision then they are enforceable, otherwise what is the point in them?

planning_officer

Hi. Yes, it's a load of baloney that the Council officer is spouting. I have no desire to slate a Council officer, as I am also one, but this really is tosh. It's a difficult situation, and I think I understand what the officer means, but he could have explained it far better.

The problem here is that if the Council was to enforce the conditions (by way of a 'Breach of Condition Notice' for example), then they would be enforcing against themselves. Now that would be a complete waste of taxpayers money, with one Council department issuing formal proceedings against another, and realistically it's never going to happen.

However it is poor for the officer to say that the normal route of enforcing a condition is 'not applicable' - that's the wrong phrase for him to use. He should have explained it along the lines of my paragraph above, i.e. it's not practical to issue enforcement proceedings against the same organisation. I am sure that discussions would be taking place between the departments to ensure the condition is adhered to, but the officer could have provided you with a bit more info - i.e. timescales, when the use will cease at 9pm etc.

If you're getting no joy from the Council officer, then I would approach a local Councillor and ask him to follow it up for you - a Councillor will not want to see the Council put in a bad light and I'm sure they will find out what's happening, especially as it's poor the use is continuing after 9pm, in clear breach of the condition.

paddyrg

I have found it not that uncommon that council events will not follow their own rules, often they are used to not being accountable, and mix that with a bit of inexperience and some red tape, you get an event that can only work if they ignore their own rules. For instance the hoops some of us have to jump through for licensing meetings proving appropriate fire and evacuation plans etc- then I see the crowds just packed into spaces for the turning on of the Christmas lights, the conditions of which could never be accepted in the private sector (7000 people, no loos, tightly packed onto street too tight to evacuate easily, road end cut off by stage so only evacuate backwards)- if I applied for a license to do that I would not stand a chance.

OneYorkshireLass

Thanks, both of you. I completely understand where you're coming from, Planning Officer, that it does not make sense for the council to enforce conditions against themselves.

However I have just found out this morning that I have been slightly mis-led.
Apparently the area that I thought was 'council-owned' in fact isn't. It is technically owned by a partner of the council, who have a separate budget and work relatively independently providing services for the community.

Does this change things?

paddyrg

OneYorkshireLass wrote: »

Thanks, both of you. I completely understand where you're coming from, Planning Officer, that it does not make sense for the council to enforce conditions against themselves.

However I have just found out this morning that I have been slightly mis-led.
Apparently the area that I thought was 'council-owned' in fact isn't. It is technically owned by a partner of the council, who have a separate budget and work relatively independently providing services for the community.

Does this change things?

Problem is your post isn't terribly specific so it is hard to tell. 'certain activities' could be a temporary Christmas market event in which case they have various licensing conditions to kids playing football in the park. I imagine they'd be enforced differently

OneYorkshireLass

paddyrg wrote: »

Problem is your post isn't terribly specific so it is hard to tell. 'certain activities' could be a temporary Christmas market event in which case they have various licensing conditions to kids playing football in the park. I imagine they'd be enforced differently

Nothing is temporary. The condition on the planning application decision notice dates back 6 years.

Storck

Put it all in writing to the planning officer asking for a written reply. Then follow it up with a complaint to the council complaints department for lack of activity from planning officer, then the ombudsman. Keep your local councillor in the loop and local paper

But if it is Bradford just give up.

planning_officer

OneYorkshireLass wrote: »

Thanks, both of you. I completely understand where you're coming from, Planning Officer, that it does not make sense for the council to enforce conditions against themselves.

However I have just found out this morning that I have been slightly mis-led.
Apparently the area that I thought was 'council-owned' in fact isn't. It is technically owned by a partner of the council, who have a separate budget and work relatively independently providing services for the community.

Does this change things?

Well, if the condition was to be enforced then any Breach of Condition notice would be served against the land owner, in this case the partner of the Council. I'm not really too sure what you mean by 'partner' and whether this organisation is connected to the Council, or if they are completely independent and just work with them in providing services - a bit like a housing organisation.

In either scenario, it is probably the case that the Council are reluctant to issue formal proceedings and are attempting to talk things through and do it internally. However honourable this may be, they should be aware that things like this have the potential to look a bit underhand to members of the public. I would just ask a Councillor to follow this up for you, as they really will not want an organisation who is somehow connected to the Council to be breaching conditions so blatantly.

One further thing is that you need to make sure the condition isn't breached regularly for 10 years, as it then becomes unenforceable - whilst there may around 4 years to go, don't let it drag on too much, and definitely follow this up with a Councillor.

OneYorkshireLass

Thanks planning_officer. They have a relationship a bit like a housing association, and the NHS 'partners'.

I will follow it up with a councillor as I've tried talking things through with the people involved and someone higher up in the council has had words, but it doesn't do any good. The planning officer concerned is doing what I've already done. He may get further, but I doubt it. The people involved know that nobody is going to check at 9/10pm at night whether anyone's carrying out any activity on the site so they think they can do what they like.

Storck - it's not Bradford thank gawd, but nearly!

*edit* Just done some digging and the people in question are a charitable trust and working in partnership with the council.

oscarward

why is it bothering you? are they creating a nuisance?

OneYorkshireLass

oscarward wrote: »

why is it bothering you? are they creating a nuisance?

Yes. Having people yelling right next to the house every night sometimes up to 10.30pm is a wee bit annoying, I have to put the telly up loud to drown them out. Especially annoying when there is a condition on the planning decision to stop it bothering residents - and I am not the only one who has complained.