Fighting a council parking ticket

chocolate_boy

I'm wondering where I stand with this.

I parked my car in a carpark last week, the parking machine asked me to enter the numeric digits of my car, I entered all 3 but only 2 of them seemed to register (un-sensitive keypad on the meter maybe).

Say my car had "607" the ticket only showed "07". My ticket was valid from 2pm-4pm and I got a ticket at 2:10pm.

I wrote a letter explaining but they have turned down my request explaining it is to prevent me passing on the ticket to someone else and ALL numeric digits must be entered and it was my responsibility to check the ticket.

They're asking for £50 from me, do I have any grounds to not pay this? I feel it's ridiculous, what are the chances I'd have passed the ticket onto someone else within 15 minutes of buying a ticket and happened to find someone with those 2 digits the same as my car.

This was obviously a mechanical fault on their machine not an attempt to defraud them, which should not have accepted one less digit surely?

TrickyWicky

chocolate_boy wrote: »

do I have any grounds to not pay this?

Absolutely yes you do.

It's not down to you to ensure that their equipment is well serviced and working properly. That is down to their technicians.

They have no doubt refused to cancel it on the grounds that they are short on cash and hope you're a mug (believe it or not, many people will just cough up the cash) but don't settle for that, wait for the NTO and then appeal it to an adjudicator but make sure you still have that ticket (they'll probably have photos of it and its serial anyway).

It's down to them to prove that you didn't have a valid ticket. Just because it's missing a digit means nothing. They can't prove that you didn't purchase it.

ILW

TrickyWicky wrote: »

Absolutely yes you do.

It's not down to you to ensure that their equipment is well serviced and working properly. That is down to their technicians.

They have no doubt refused to cancel it on the grounds that they are short on cash and hope you're a mug (believe it or not, many people will just cough up the cash) but don't settle for that, wait for the NTO and then appeal it to an adjudicator but make sure you still have that ticket (they'll probably have photos of it and its serial anyway).

It's down to them to prove that you didn't have a valid ticket. Just because it's missing a digit means nothing. They can't prove that you didn't purchase it.

The offence is not displaying a "valid" ticket (nothing to do with whether you bought one or not). I would suspect they are saying the missing digit makes the ticket not valid.

taffy056

Can I just say on the good advice above to get the help on https://www.pepipoo.com as well, they are the experts on the web for council tickets, and they can help you to appeal this.

taffy056

ILW wrote: »

The offence is not displaying a "valid" ticket (nothing to do with whether you bought one or not). I would suspect they are saying the missing digit makes the ticket not valid.

I think tricky does know what he's talking about considering he was a council CEO , or maybe is one now ?

Coupon-mad

It's almost always worth appealing a Council PCN further. Most people get an early rejection, it's standard stuff for most Councils - some seem to reject all informal challenges - and does NOT mean you don't have a case.

Firstly you could read this decision by the Chief Adjudicator, Caroline Sheppard who has also been quoted as saying she wants Councils to exercise common sense:

http://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/d...BM07586G_1_.pdf

''While the CEO cannot be criticised for issuing the PCN, in my view the Council should have immediately cancelled this penalty charge since they had in their own system proof that Doctor Evans had paid £3.30 for parking the car. He had no means of knowing when he left the car park that his payment had been recorded against his own car rather than Miss Price's but it was clear when he explained in his letter of 20 September what had happened.''

This case is similar to yours as it was about a wrong car reg (albeit pay-by-phone in that adjudication). And yours was only ONE digit not read by the machine!

But that linked successful appeal case to the Chief Parking Adjudicator turned on the fact that there had been no contravention of a Traffic Order, as far as I recall, there was nothing to cover this as a contravention. Never mind any signs, it's the Order which prevails.

You need to see the Traffic Order for that place so email for it now. No need to mention the PCN number at all as anyone can ask to see a public document like a Traffic Order. You have a bit of time now because you will be waiting for the Notice to Owner (assuming this is your car).

Also start a thread on pepipoo with pics of all letters, all pages, including front & back of the PCN:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

When you get the Traffic Order - within days or chase it! - read through the thing and pick out the relevant pages & info about this car reg number machine scheme (and you can put the Order in the pepipoo repository if it's large). Tell the posters there what you have found in the Order about the onus of putting in the right car reg number and/or any onus about the right car reg number being shown on the P&D ticket on display on the dashboard/windscreen. There's almost bound to be an oversight or omission somewhere in the Order with a scheme like this where a machine is used for car reg number input!

HTH

TrickyWicky

ILW wrote: »

The offence is not displaying a "valid" ticket (nothing to do with whether you bought one or not). I would suspect they are saying the missing digit makes the ticket not valid.

On the contrary, if the machine isn't working properly then the council can't reasonably argue that the ticket that THEY sold to the customer is invalid.

They can't. They could argue that the op didn't press the button hard enough or something however the op just has to ask how a disabled person with MS is expected to use it and the council will be knackered because a person with MS wouldn't be able to press with all their might.

As I said earlier, it's the councils responsibility to ensure their machines are working properly not the motorists. The council by issuing this PCN are basically calling the motorist a liar with no evidence to prove so. The last I checked, you were still innocent until PROVEN guilty (though that does seem to be eroding every week).

It may well be worth writing back another email and insisting on a formal appeal via the parking office manager before the adjudicator appeal (yes, you can do this). Strange things happen with silly PCNs when they think you're going to go the whole way to an independent appeal (like back tracking and PCNs getting cancelled). You may even want to include the fact that they have acted vexatiously towards you and that you will be seeking costs at the adjudication.

chocolate_boy

Thanks so much for the excellent advice.

I'll post this on Pepipoo and I will fight this ticket as it sounds like I at least have a half decent chance, plus on principle I think I'd hate myself for just paying it and not trying in this circumstance.

ILW

So if the council could show that on that day and before and after the OPs ticket, that the machine produced other tickets with the "6" working. Would that be considered as proof?

dggar

ILW wrote: »

So if the council could show that on that day and before and after the OPs ticket, that the machine produced other tickets with the "6" working. Would that be considered as proof?

No it would not

ILW

dggar wrote: »

No it would not

Why not?..