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Guardian article - the squeezed middle class?
Comments
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the_duke_of_hazzard wrote: »The concept of middle class is such a slippery and ill-defined one it could almost have been invented to support trolling newspaper articles designed to get forums like this frothing at the mouth.
Remember the endless discussion about John Prescott?
There isn't one middle class, there are three: lower, middle and upper. Lower middle class is basically someone like a GP's secretary, a police constable or a standard grade nurse; middle middle class would be a teacher or a middle manager; upper middle class would be a doctor, solicitor or a senior manager, director, etc. These are not ultra-precise calculations but they give an idea of types of occupations that fit into the classes.
The point is that there are middle classes, not one broad middle class.
And these are purely economic divisions, but there are cultural ones as well. For instance, those who come from an upper middle class culture have invariably attended an independent school as opposed to a state one. This is one of the things that separate the upper layer from the other two. One other interesting cultural aspect of being in the middle classes (not necessarily upper middle class though most commonly found there) is the fondness for archaic items or habits, eg. classical music, mechanical watches, fountain pens, regular church attendance, etc.0 -
There isn't one middle class, there are three: lower, middle and upper. Lower middle class is basically someone like a GP's secretary, a police constable or a standard grade nurse; middle middle class would be a teacher or a middle manager; upper middle class would be a doctor, solicitor or a senior manager, director, etc. These are not ultra-precise calculations but they give an idea of types of occupations that fit into the classes.
The point is that there are middle classes, not one broad middle class.
And these are purely economic divisions, but there are cultural ones as well. For instance, those who come from an upper middle class culture have invariably attended an independent school as opposed to a state one. This is one of the things that separate the upper layer from the other two. One other interesting cultural aspect of being in the middle classes (not necessarily upper middle class though most commonly found there) is the fondness for archaic items or habits, eg. classical music, mechanical watches, fountain pens, regular church attendance, etc.
Whatever perceptions you adopt as to what is middle class (or of subdivisions of it), the definition has changed over time through people's somewhat inflated ideas about their own social standing. It started as more people bought their homes (or at least acquired large mortgages) and has continued with university attendance.
I remember a time when what you call lower and middle middle classes were just working class people who liked to present themselves as being above the rest and were in skilled "white collar" occupations. This was then extended to calling theselves middle class. I am not saying that those occupations do not have some social status, but too many people like to interpret improving social afflence with moving up this social scale. But they forget that the real middle classes have also moved upwards in their own affluence.
The real middle class are those with owned wealth and income that can sustain their lifestyle even if they lost their income for a few years. It includes some of what you call upper middle class but even those occupations you cite are often based on borrowing. I agree that affording private education for their children is a good indication of being middle class but unless they can afford to pay cash for the fees then some are deluding themselves.
The idea that going to church, owning a fountain pen and liking classical music confer middle classness, is absurd. I grant you that those who have pretentions to be middle class sometimes profess interest in these things but that says more about them than it does about being middle class.
It may be the modern view that anyone on average wages with a qualification is middle class, but I think this is silly.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
the_duke_of_hazzard wrote: »The concept of middle class is such a slippery and ill-defined one it could almost have been invented to support trolling newspaper articles designed to get forums like this frothing at the mouth.
Remember the endless discussion about John Prescott?
As I posted above. I agree its a slippery concept, but the problem is those aspiring to be middle class keep redefining the term to include themselves because they are "not working class". The trouble is that these days some of these pretentious people have a lifestyle that is less affluent than plumbers and electrcians who do very well despite getting their hands dirty!Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
Whatever perceptions you adopt as to what is middle class (or of subdivisions of it), the definition has changed over time through people's somewhat inflated ideas about their own social standing. It started as more people bought their homes (or at least acquired large mortgages) and has continued with university attendance.
I remember a time when what you call lower and middle middle classes were just working class people who liked to present themselves as being above the rest and were in skilled "white collar" occupations. This was then extended to calling theselves middle class. I am not saying that those occupations do not have some social status, but too many people like to interpret improving social afflence with moving up this social scale. But they forget that the real middle classes have also moved upwards in their own affluence.
There is more to class than money. Would you call Harry Redknapp, Frank Bruno or 'Jordan' middle class, let alone upper class? :rotfl:
Class is about upbringing, culture, manners and the way one comes across, speaks and dresses. It is not just an economic measure. A lord who lives like a down and out is still a lord.The real middle class are those with owned wealth and income that can sustain their lifestyle even if they lost their income for a few years. It includes some of what you call upper middle class but even those occupations you cite are often based on borrowing. I agree that affording private education for their children is a good indication of being middle class but unless they can afford to pay cash for the fees then some are deluding themselves.
The people you refer to above are in what I would call the upper class, or the landed gentry, not the middle classes. They could also be lottery winners or the type of moneyed celebrities I mentioned above. Middle class people do borrow, and they have the credit status that enables them to do so. Working class people simply do not have the creditworthiness to borrow much, unless through a loan shark or a pawnbroker.The idea that going to church, owning a fountain pen and liking classical music confer middle classness, is absurd. I grant you that those who have pretentions to be middle class sometimes profess interest in these things but that says more about them than it does about being middle class.
It's no more absurd than the claim that all middle class people have vast reserves of cash and are debt free. Far from it.It may be the modern view that anyone on average wages with a qualification is middle class, but I think this is silly.
It's not silly - otherwise why would the middle classes be called 'middle'!! :rotfl: It's not the modern view at all - it has always been so. The people you refer to as being your idea of being middle class are closer to being upper class. A middle class person is more likely to own a Ford Focus than a Bentley - this is a fact.0 -
ruggedtoast wrote: »Worrying about other people being better off than you is the quickest way to insanity there is I reckon. Just look at hpc.co.uk.
Pmsl...bit like those oh so well off pesky boomers eh.Official MR B fan club,dont go............................0 -
There is more to class than money. Would you call Harry Redknapp, Frank Bruno or 'Jordan' middle class, let alone upper class? :rotfl:
Class is about upbringing, culture, manners and the way one comes across, speaks and dresses. It is not just an economic measure. A lord who lives like a down and out is still a lord.
The people you refer to above are in what I would call the upper class, or the landed gentry, not the middle classes. They could also be lottery winners or the type of moneyed celebrities I mentioned above. Middle class people do borrow, and they have the credit status that enables them to do so. Working class people simply do not have the creditworthiness to borrow much, unless through a loan shark or a pawnbroker.
It's no more absurd than the claim that all middle class people have vast reserves of cash and are debt free. Far from it.
It's not silly - otherwise why would the middle classes be called 'middle'!! :rotfl: It's not the modern view at all - it has always been so. The people you refer to as being your idea of being middle class are closer to being upper class. A middle class person is more likely to own a Ford Focus than a Bentley - this is a fact.
You are missing my point. I have one view of what middle class is and you have another. This does not matter. My point is that the definitions have evolved over time and many people call themself middle class when they would not have been regarded as so in the past.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
You are missing my point. I have one view of what middle class is and you have another. This does not matter. My point is that the definitions have evolved over time and many people call themself middle class when they would not have been regarded as so in the past.
Sorry but I just don't agree with you. The concept of being middle class hasn't changed - it's the broad 'middle' of society that covers a wide range of people in white collar occupations. Maybe you are drawing on a Victorian definition, when only a 'gentleman' of private means could properly call himself middle class. Maybe so, but in those times houses could quite easily be bought for cash by middle class people, and someone such as a lawyer could fairly rapidly earn enough money to retire comfortably by the age of 50. Such times are very distant now.0 -
Sorry but I just don't agree with you. The concept of being middle class hasn't changed - it's the broad 'middle' of society that covers a wide range of people in white collar occupations. Maybe you are drawing on a Victorian definition, when only a 'gentleman' of private means could properly call himself middle class. Maybe so, but in those times houses could quite easily be bought for cash by middle class people, and someone such as a lawyer could fairly rapidly earn enough money to retire comfortably by the age of 50. Such times are very distant now.
Today over 70% of people think they are middle class and include people who cannot afford to buy a house. Modern definitions are increasingly being dumbed down to include just about everyone who is employed and has has any significant skill set. A large number of these are kiddlng themselves. Have a look at this.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/class-exclusive-seven-in-10-of-us-belong-to-middle-britain-2247052.html
Note the changes from the 1980s.
My view is that the real middle class are mostly those you call upper middle class and this was largely the same as in Victorian times, that is, Barristers, GPs, farmers, those who owned established and profitable businesss and who owned a house or maybe two and as you cay could afford to retire with good investment income.
Still if people want to call themselves middle class it does not matter. The term is meaningless these days.Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are incapable of forming such opinions.0 -
Today over 70% of people think they are middle class and include people who cannot afford to buy a house. Modern definitions are increasingly being dumbed down to include just about everyone who is employed and has has any significant skill set. A large number of these are kiddlng themselves. Have a look at this.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/class-exclusive-seven-in-10-of-us-belong-to-middle-britain-2247052.html
Note the changes from the 1980s.
My view is that the real middle class are mostly those you call upper middle class and this was largely the same as in Victorian times, that is, Barristers, GPs, farmers, those who owned established and profitable businesss and who owned a house or maybe two and as you cay could afford to retire with good investment income.
Still if people want to call themselves middle class it does not matter. The term is meaningless these days.
Society has changed. But middle class is exactly that - the middle sector of society. You can't call teachers and middle managers 'working class' - this would be absurd - so your definition is fallacious. The Victorian definition of middle class included merchants and small businessmen, not just the higher professions. The fact that 70% of people now consider themselves middle class is because the number of manual workers has declined dramatically since 1970 - the decline in trade union membership reflects this. You seem resentful of the fact that the middle class has grown - snobbery perhaps?0 -
All class labels are pretty meaningless these days. They are perpetuated by the hard left class warriors who are obsessed with them. If they were to recognise how ludicrous that all is they would have to stretch their tiny little minds to find something else to be angry, aggrieved, resentful, and embittered about.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0
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