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Deposit disputes with my letting agents - can you help?

nzseries1
nzseries1 Posts: 2,240 Forumite
edited 13 November 2012 at 3:48PM in House buying, renting & selling
Hi there,

I moved out of a property last month and I've got a couple of questions (sorry for the long post):
  • Along with the section 21 notice given to me was a notice saying "we will contact you to arrange a check-out of the property". However, they (the letting agents) did not contact me - they just went ahead and did it without giving me the opportunity to be present. It took place two weeks after I moved out. Now they're charging me £216 for the privilege.

    I don't really want to pay this, since I wasn't given the chance to be present... but I'm guessing that since the tenancy agreement states [The tenant agrees...] "24.4. To pay the Agent for the cost of arranging the check out at the end of the Tenancy.", that I don't have a choice?

  • As well as me not agreeing to the contents of the checkout report, the same thing happened with the checkin report when I moved in - they did not give me the opportunity to be present there either. Now, the agents are trying to deduct £150 from my deposit for regrouting the bathroom tiles. I claim they needed regrouting when I moved in. Am I right in saying since I don't accept the contents of neither the checkin nor checkout reports, that there's no way this claim would hold up in small claims court?

  • On at least two occasions while I lived there, the agents let themselves in without permission and without warning (I say "at least" because I only caught them twice - who knows how many other times they did it). The tenancy agreement states:

    The following clauses set out what can be expected from the Landlord during the Tenancy in addition to the main Terms found in Part III. If any of these Terms are broken, the Tenant may be entitled to claim damages from the Landlord, or ask a court to make the Landlord keep these promises.

    Quiet Enjoyment
    26.1. To allow the Tenant to quietly hold and enjoy the Premises during the Tenancy without any unlawful interruption by the Landlord or any person rightfully claiming under, through or in trust for the Landlord.

    This seems to suggest that I can "claim damages" from the Landlord because the agents unlawfully interrupted my quiet enjoyment on two occasions. But in practice, what does this actually mean? The only financial loss I incurred was £15 to have the lock changed. But the first time it happened, I was very stressed about it for a while - can I claim damages for that? The agents were very nasty about it when I confronted them - they even threatened to sue me for damages if I refused the agents access when they tried to get in.

It's probably worth mentioning that I've never spoken to my landlord directly. It's my agents that I communicated with the whole time and the ones that are being horrible to me.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
You're spelling is effecting me so much. Im trying not to be phased by it but your all making me loose my mind on mass!! My head is loosing it's hair. I'm going to take myself off the electoral role like I should of done ages ago and move to the Caribean. I already brought my plane ticket, all be it a refundable 1.
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Comments

  • Fire_Fox
    Fire_Fox Posts: 26,026 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    It's worth running an advanced search, deposit issues come up on a daily basis. Don't confuse issues that occurred during the tenancy with now, you should have addressed those with the landlord at the time, right of quiet enjoyment is nothing to do with your damage deposit. For future reference you could have changed the locks and written to your landlord using the address at which to serve notices on your tenancy agreement to complain.

    Is there a dual signed check in inventory and what does it show about the state of the bathroom? Is your deposit lodged with one of the three schemes and did you receive the prescribed information at the start of the tenancy? A tenant is not responsible for regrouting that is repairs and maintenance, open a dispute with the deposit scheme and you will win.

    Horrible to you, what am I missing? I doubt this is personal, it's standard disregard for tenants rights/ incompetency.
    Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️
  • G_M
    G_M Posts: 51,977 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    nzseries1 wrote: »
    Hi there,

    I moved out of a property last month and I've got a couple of questions (sorry for the long post):
    • Along with the section 21 notice given to me was a notice saying "we will contact you to arrange a check-out of the property". However, they (the letting agents) did not contact me - they just went ahead and did it without giving me the opportunity to be present. It took place two weeks after I moved out. Now they're charging me £216 for the privilege.
    • I don't really want to pay this, since I wasn't given the chance to be present... but I'm guessing that since the tenancy agreement states [The tenant agrees...] "24.4. To pay the Agent for the cost of arranging the check out at the end of the Tenancy.", that I don't have a choice?You agreed to the fee by signing the tenancy. It is unusual - commonly the LL pays for the check-in and the tenant for the check-out, but there you go! Also £216 seems on the high side. Negotiate?

    • As well as me not agreeing to the contents of the checkout report, the same thing happened with the checkin report when I moved in - they did not give me the opportunity to be present there either. Now, the agents are trying to deduct £150 from my deposit for regrouting the bathroom tiles. I claim they needed regrouting when I moved in. Am I right in saying since I don't accept the contents of neither the checkin nor checkout reports, that there's no way this claim would hold up in small claims court?
      No. Your presence is not required for either inspection. However, did you agree/sign the check-in report/inventory? If not, it cannot be relied on by the landlord. And what did the check-in report say, if anything, about the grout? If it said it was clean (or the attached photos show it as clean) then you are responsible for making it dirty. If it said it was dirty, the LL cannot deduct anything.
    • Agents entered the property on at least two occasions while I lived there, both times without any notice or any warning (I say "at least" because I only caught them twice - who knows how many other times they did it). The tenancy agreement states:

      The following clauses set out what can be expected from the Landlord during the Tenancy in addition to the main Terms found in Part III. If any of these Terms are broken, the Tenant may be entitled to claim damages from the Landlord, or ask a court to make the Landlord keep these promises.

      Quiet Enjoyment
      26.1. To allow the Tenant to quietly hold and enjoy the Premises during the Tenancy without any unlawful interruption by the Landlord or any person rightfully claiming under, through or in trust for the Landlord.

      This seems to suggest that I can "claim damages" from the Landlord because the agents unlawfully interrupted my quiet enjoyment on two occasions. But in practice, what does this actually mean? The only financial loss I incurred was £15 to have the lock changed.That was your choise - it was not damage caused by the agent. Did the agents cause any damage?
    • But the first time it happened, I was very stressed about it for a while - can I claim damages for that? No The agents were very nonchalant about it - they even threatened to sue me for damages if I refused the agents access when they tried to get in.That was just talk.
    It's probably worth mentioning that I've never spoken to my landlord directly. It's my agents that I communicated with the whole time and the ones that are being horrible to me.

    Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!
    I'm afraid the time to do anything about the uninvited inspections is long gone.
  • nzseries1
    nzseries1 Posts: 2,240 Forumite
    Thanks both - no, I did not sign or agree to either the check in or check out reports. In fact, they did not even provide me a copy of the check in report until 6 months into the tenancy, despite many attempts (some written of which I have proof) asking for it.

    The checkin report shows photos of the tiles as being dirty, but slightly less dirty than in the checkout report.

    No, the agents caused no damage when they came into the property without permission, but that's not what bothered me - just the mere fact that they were coming through my property was enough to get me angry. If I have a "right to quiet enjoyment" of the property, but I can't do anything about it when they decide to let themselves in, then what's the point of having that right?

    I guess I considered them to be "horrible" when they were threatening to sue me when I'm just exercising my legal right to quiet enjoyment of the property.
    You're spelling is effecting me so much. Im trying not to be phased by it but your all making me loose my mind on mass!! My head is loosing it's hair. I'm going to take myself off the electoral role like I should of done ages ago and move to the Caribean. I already brought my plane ticket, all be it a refundable 1.
  • nzseries1
    nzseries1 Posts: 2,240 Forumite
    Fire_Fox wrote: »
    For future reference you could have changed the locks and written to your landlord using the address at which to serve notices on your tenancy agreement to complain.

    I did exactly this on the second occasion. However, the tenancy agreement specifically states I may be able to "claim damages" for this exact scenario. Exactly what does that mean?

    Sorry to go on about it, but I just hated the fact they felt like they could let themselves in when they felt like it. My home is my quiet place and I do NOT want people coming through it.
    You're spelling is effecting me so much. Im trying not to be phased by it but your all making me loose my mind on mass!! My head is loosing it's hair. I'm going to take myself off the electoral role like I should of done ages ago and move to the Caribean. I already brought my plane ticket, all be it a refundable 1.
  • Fire_Fox
    Fire_Fox Posts: 26,026 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    edited 13 November 2012 at 4:13PM
    Do you mean the tiles are dirty or the grout is dirty? Do you mean grey discolouration or bodyfat? Did you clean the tiles and the grout, if so what with, did you use a toothbrush and something strong like Star Drops or sugar soap? I'd be inclined to buy a grout pen and post it to them recorded delivery. :rotfl: And then dispute the charge through the deposit scheme.

    We understand and support a tenant's right to quiet enjoyment, but I think you are jumbling up two issues which is unwise. If you want to take out a small claims action in the county court you can, but 'damages' is not in our remit to define as we are not a solicitor or magistrate. You may have to provide evidence of being under stress for example.
    Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️
  • nzseries1
    nzseries1 Posts: 2,240 Forumite
    Fire_Fox wrote: »
    Do you mean the tiles are dirty or the grout is dirty? Do you mean grey discolouration or bodyfat? Did you clean the tiles and the grout, if so what with, did you use a toothbrush and something strong like Star Drops or sugar soap? I'd be inclined to buy a grout pen and post it to them recorded delivery. :rotfl: And then dispute the charge through the deposit scheme.

    The tiles were definitely clean, but the grout wasn't. I honestly don't remember it any more specifically than this, and when I moved out, I just paid a cleaning company to do an "end of tenancy cleaning".

    I'm prepared to pay the £216 for the checkout report and I'm prepared not to claim "damages" for the unauthorised entry. However, I'm not willing to pay £150 for the regrouting. I'm wondering if I have more chance of getting this £150 back if I were to go to small claims court, or if I should just file a dispute through the DPS.

    My thinking was that if I'm going to go to small claims for the £150, then I might as well claim "damages" for the unauthorised entries while I'm there.

    I meant to say before: yes, my deposit is protected correctly with the DPS.
    You're spelling is effecting me so much. Im trying not to be phased by it but your all making me loose my mind on mass!! My head is loosing it's hair. I'm going to take myself off the electoral role like I should of done ages ago and move to the Caribean. I already brought my plane ticket, all be it a refundable 1.
  • nzseries1
    nzseries1 Posts: 2,240 Forumite
    I almost want to take it to small claims court just to waste the agent's time! :D Ok, so perhaps I am being pathetic now, aren't I :)
    You're spelling is effecting me so much. Im trying not to be phased by it but your all making me loose my mind on mass!! My head is loosing it's hair. I'm going to take myself off the electoral role like I should of done ages ago and move to the Caribean. I already brought my plane ticket, all be it a refundable 1.
  • Fire_Fox
    Fire_Fox Posts: 26,026 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    OK now I am confused I thought the £150 was part of the £216. If not what is the £216 for, literally just for preparing the report? When were you advised/ did you agree to pay for this, is it in any of your paperwork you signed at the start? If you are paying for that report you absolutely should have been present. How are they trying to claim this from you, out of your deposit or a separate invoice?

    If the issue is dirty grout the tenant is liable tho the landlord has to prove there was more dirt at the end of the tenancy than at the start, if the grout needs replacing due to discolouration or becoming friable you are not. I'd be pretty annoyed at the cleaning company for not doing the grout properly.

    As already stated dispute any deductions through the deposit scheme. No you are not being pathetic, but it is a lot of work to open a case in the county court unless you can demonstrate what you are claiming damages for (medical evidence of stress?).
    Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️
  • nzseries1
    nzseries1 Posts: 2,240 Forumite
    edited 13 November 2012 at 4:36PM
    Sorry for not being clear... they are claiming from the deposit:

    £216 for preparation of a check-out report, and
    £150 for regrouting of bathroom tiles

    In the tenancy agreement it says that the tenant is responsible for the cost of the checkout report, but a specific amount to be payable is not mentioned.
    You're spelling is effecting me so much. Im trying not to be phased by it but your all making me loose my mind on mass!! My head is loosing it's hair. I'm going to take myself off the electoral role like I should of done ages ago and move to the Caribean. I already brought my plane ticket, all be it a refundable 1.
  • Fire_Fox
    Fire_Fox Posts: 26,026 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    And they are claiming this £216 out of the damage deposit? Charges are supposed to be reasonable, IMO that is not especially as you were not even present at the report you allegedly commissioned. Plus not sure that is chargeable out of the damage deposit, ask the DPS or maybe one of MSE's professional landlords will confirm or deny. I would dispute it, you have nothing to lose.

    Make some screenshots/ get quotes for cost of similar report from other companies. At least one local to you. be interesting to know if they are also charging the landlord.

    "There is a flat rate fee of £75 for a basic furnished property consisting of a bedroom, bathroom, lounge and kitchen. We will record the condition of your hallways, corridors, stairs and landings (not communal areas in blocks of flats) completely free of charge. For each additional room, be it a bedroom, a bathroom or a reception room just add £10."
    http://www.inventoryexpert.co.uk/independent-rental-property-inventory-services.html

    £60-£140
    http://www.cyanpropertyservices.co.uk/Cyan_Property_Services_PriceList.pdf
    Declutterbug-in-progress.⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️
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