Benefit fraud partly under age. PLEASE advise.

dd101

Hello,

Firstly, my main concern here is how the investigation is being dealt with as in my opinion, if I have unkownigly done somethign wrong, then I have to cross that bridge when I come to it but I have SERIOUS concerns.

- I receive a call back in April, my benefit had been suspended in March. I knew why and called them got told to call this benefit fraud woman and I did. Gave her my email as I had no fixed abode and emailed her explaining what had happened which in a nutshell;

Was renting a room, landlord turned out to be a sub-letter landlord found out and went crazy, everyone got told to be out by the next Day and that our tenancies meant nothing. The subletting guy promised me another room ASAP so I planned to continue claiming while I found another room THEN inform the council of my new address as i was worried about a big gap with starting a new claim. Sent an email explaining this and left it.

- I get an email with a letter for interview under caution on JUNE 2012. The date was when I was away at a family wedding and oddly was on a Saturday?! I emailled her on June 27th saying I am sorry I cannot attend can we re-arrange. I hered nothing. I called and left my name and number twice. I left it.

- OCTOBER 2012 The leading officer delaing with my case calls me out of the blue and says we need to arrange an interview. I agree and she books it for 3 weeks time and Says that she will send it in letter form to my old address as I can still get my post from there. Letter states its about X address and X problem. I DID NOT seek LEGAL ADVICE because I knew what it was, 3 weeks over payment, failure to notify etc.

- Get to intwerviwe under caution and she interviews me about the past 4 years of my life, 3 addresses and a number of people for 2 and a half hours! It was exhausting.

NOW THE REAL CONCERN

She turns up at my middle landlords property, she is looking at 3 claims at 3 address;

Address 1: 16 years old, paid straight to landlord
Adress 2: 16 - 17 years old, paid to me
Address 3: 18- 19 years old, paid to me

-She turns up at address 2, unannounced and questioned my 76 year old landlord for over an hour, unrecorded. She tells him I have been claiming at HIS address for 4 years, this angered him. She also disclosed to him that my landlord at address 3 has a criminal record and she believes together me and him are part of a large scale fraud. She tells my ex landlord that I was claiming at 16 etc etc. Makes remarks such as "believe me, ill be prosecuting this girl, every case I get I take them down, I don't care if there OAPs, disabled, I get them, this girls has lied to me on tape through her whole interview"

I was DISGUSTED to hear this. By the way, my interview was on the Thursday until office closing time, she turned up here on the Monday.

My current partner is the son of landlord 2, we got into an actual relationship when I was living at another property AFTER this date, during my time at his parents he lived in Spain and worked there. So of course we know word for word in all truth what was said, my ex landlord was so disgusted with how she acted that hes retracted the statement and is complaining.

Im so CONFUSED. I do not know what im being investigated for or what is happening. We didn't get to finish the interview and I had no time to ask questions, she now refuses to get back to me, meet me again until she has ore evidence etc. I am waiting for my useless solicitors to contact me, I have been waiting 2 weeks for a referral.

I want to know how she can act like this, this isnt fair or impartial? How can she lie to my landlord to provoke anger and get away with it. How can she tell me the interview is about one small thing, then sit and interview me for so long. I am worried because I tried to answer the questions so I did not look uncooperative but I cannot remember everything from when I was 16. I was a bit of a tearaway, I had depression and eating problems and I did not really understand my legal obligations to claiming benefits, in all honesty, I didn't care back then.

I know I have written A LOT but no one can help me if I do not lay down the facts.

Does anyone know if I can do anything about her behavior and;

IF they find I done something fraudulent under the age of 18, is this taken into consideration?

Any other advice, experiences?

THANK YOU

EDIT: In interview she was suspicious because you can see X benefit going out but Y cash withdrawals that do not add up. I explained my rent was paid in cash, as stated on application and that I received "charitable donations" as I was not in a fit state of mind to work and was too young to claim anything, not that I even knew what was out there.

I got say £250 in Charitable donations per month. My rent for example was £90 a week. I used to used the cash I got to pay rent and withdraw the different from my bank, so if I had £50 cash sitting there, I would only draw out £40 from my bank. Then I used what was left in my bank from housing benefit to pay for the stuff that the charitable donations was meant for, food, clothes etc. I said to her, why am I going to take cash to the bank every week, only to take cash back out??? I was terrible with money so I paid for things using card, I said, if I had £20 and only needed to spend £5, id end up spending the whole £20, its what I was like.

Firstly she accused me of taking money from my partner or friends and paying rent with it, I don't understand whats wrong with this, money is money, they knew how much money I received every month, its up to me what pot I pay it from, its all still MONEY!

Then she said, ok, lets say you wasn't having your rent paid by someone else, then I think you wasn't paying your landlord???

Her accusations were contradicting to say the least. I was honest and just said, look, I was 16-18 during these periods, my life was a mess, I did not keep paperwork ,record monies and quite frankly wasn't bothered about it, I was consumed with depression and that was the least of my worries. Now I am 20, have started my own sole trading company that is going well, I have matured so much am no longer depressed or taking medication and I am supporting myself. I feel like my careless behavior from when I was a minor is biting me in the backside and I understand if I was wrong, I was wrong, I need to face that but I am being treated like I was a completely comprehendable adult that knowingly plotted to scam the system because I am organised criminal.

thorsoak

dd101 wrote: »

Hello,

Firstly, my main concern here is how the investigation is being dealt with as in my opinion, if I have unkownigly done somethign wrong, then I have to cross that bridge when I come to it but I have SERIOUS concerns.............

- I receive a call back in April, my benefit had been suspended in March. I knew why and called them got told to call this benefit fraud woman and I did. Gave her my email as I had no fixed abode and emailed her explaining what had happened which in a nutshell;

Was renting a room, landlord turned out to be a sub-letter landlord found out and went crazy, everyone got told to be out by the next Day and that our tenancies meant nothing. The subletting guy promised me another room ASAP so I planned to continue claiming while I found another room THEN inform the council of my new address as i was worried about a big gap with starting a new claim. Sent an email explaining this and left it.

- I get an email with a letter for interview under caution on JUNE 2012. The date was when I was away at a family wedding and oddly was on a Saturday?! I emailled her on June 27th saying I am sorry I cannot attend can we re-arrange. I hered nothing. I called and left my name and number twice. I left it.

- OCTOBER 2012 The leading officer delaing with my case calls me out of the blue and says we need to arrange an interview. I agree and she books it for 3 weeks time and Says that she will send it in letter form to my old address as I can still get my post from there. Letter states its about X address and X problem. I DID NOT seek LEGAL ADVICE because I knew what it was, 3 weeks over payment, failure to notify etc.

- Get to intwerviwe under caution and she interviews me about the past 4 years of my life, 3 addresses and a number of people for 2 and a half hours! It was exhausting.

NOW THE REAL CONCERN

She turns up at my middle landlords property, she is looking at 3 claims at 3 address;

Address 1: 16 years old, paid straight to landlord
Adress 2: 16 - 17 years old, paid to me
Address 3: 18- 19 years old, paid to me

-She turns up at address 2, unannounced and questioned my 76 year old landlord for over an hour, unrecorded. She tells him I have been claiming at HIS address for 4 years, this angered him. She also disclosed to him that my landlord at address 3 has a criminal record and she believes together me and him are part of a large scale fraud. She tells my ex landlord that I was claiming at 16 etc etc. Makes remarks such as "believe me, ill be prosecuting this girl, every case I get I take them down, I don't care if there OAPs, disabled, I get them, this girls has lied to me on tape through her whole interview"

I was DISGUSTED to hear this. By the way, my interview was on the Thursday until office closing time, she turned up here on the Monday.

My current partner is the son of landlord 2, we got into an actual relationship when I was living at another property AFTER this date, during my time at his parents he lived in Spain and worked there. So of course we know word for word in all truth what was said, my ex landlord was so disgusted with how she acted that hes retracted the statement and is complaining.

Im so CONFUSED. I do not know what im being investigated for or what is happening. We didn't get to finish the interview and I had no time to ask questions, she now refuses to get back to me, meet me again until she has ore evidence etc. I am waiting for my useless solicitors to contact me, I have been waiting 2 weeks for a referral.

I want to know how she can act like this, this isnt fair or impartial? How can she lie to my landlord to provoke anger and get away with it. How can she tell me the interview is about one small thing, then sit and interview me for so long. I am worried because I tried to answer the questions so I did not look uncooperative but I cannot remember everything from when I was 16. I was a bit of a tearaway, I had depression and eating problems and I did not really understand my legal obligations to claiming benefits, in all honesty, I didn't care back then.

I know I have written A LOT but no one can help me if I do not lay down the facts.

Does anyone know if I can do anything about her behavior and;

IF they find I done something fraudulent under the age of 18, is this taken into consideration?

Any other advice, experiences?

THANK YOU

If you committed fraud under the age of 18 then you committed a criminal offence - and yes, you could be prosecuted for it.

PippaGirl_2

Some thoughts.

It's completely normal not to know all their evidence and what they are questioning about in an IUC. Was the IUC recorded? There should have been more than her there, there should have been another person too? It's always recommended you never go to such interviews alone, even if you go with a friend or relative, another person as witness is good. Hopefully it will have been recorded though, you can ask for a copy of the recording.

If anything ever goes to court your age will be considered, but atm we don't know what you are being accused of or why so don't panic.

If you are not happy with your current legal representation I would find another.

It does not sound like this lady has behaved at all professionally ime.

However would you say that there may have been an overpayment at some stage? Obviously it was not right to continue a claim after leaving a property and you should have closed that claim and opened another when you found new digs. You were honest about it at the time which will help, but it still should not have been done. Seems more to this than that one thing.

Are you a care leaver? I ask only as you were independent so young. If so, then you should now be able to be supported by social services and their support would help your case.

dd101

PippaGirl wrote: »

Some thoughts.

It's completely normal not to know all their evidence and what they are questioning about in an IUC. Was the IUC recorded? There should have been more than her there, there should have been another person too? It's always recommended you never go to such interviews alone, even if you go with a friend or relative, another person as witness is good. Hopefully it will have been recorded though, you can ask for a copy of the recording.

If anything ever goes to court your age will be considered, but atm we don't know what you are being accused of or why so don't panic.

If you are not happy with your current legal representation I would find another.

It does not sound like this lady has behaved at all professionally ime.

However would you say that there may have been an overpayment at some stage? Obviously it was not right to continue a claim after leaving a property and you should have closed that claim and opened another when you found new digs. You were honest about it at the time which will help, but it still should not have been done. Seems more to this than that one thing.

Are you a care leaver? I ask only as you were independent so young. If so, then you should now be able to be supported by social services and their support would help your case.

Thank you for your reply. My landlord made my first claim on my behalf, he was also my boss and we was on a low wage, he wanted me and another girl who was 17 (I was 16) to live on the doorstep of work because we lived quite far away and offered us to live in the property if we claimed. I assume it was an easy way to rent his property, we was earning very little in wages and agreed. We got a letter to say we had been refused due to our age because we was NOT care leavers. We left it and carried on living there, we had stopped working for this guy temporarily as he was abroad on urgent family matters, he agreed to cover our bills during this time. We left the benefit problem to him and contacted him to ask if we needed to leave. Then about 2 weeks later we received a letter saying that after a review we had been awarded it. I do not know why because our age certainly didnt change. She did ask me about being a care leaver in interview. I have NEVER stated I was from care because I am not.

I have been told by my solicitors firms main department to wait until 3pm for a call, if the referral has not gone through by then I was be seeking another solicitor immediately.

As for the overpayment, I phoned to ask when I had to notify them by and they said you have up to a month. So stupidly I thought I would be in another room, well within a month, tell them I had moved and everything would be ok BUT within 2 weeks of me leaving they had sent me a letter as it was the new tax year, the landlord phoned to say I wasn't living there and a week later they called me. So thats how it was 3 weeks overpayment, I was technically within my month still but it just didn't work out OK as I thought it would have. I understand this was wrong, I apologised and offered to pay it back, back in June (I didn't really know how investigations worked) then they didn't bother to contact me for interview until October!

Also, the interview was recorded but there was only one person interviewing me. She said "this shouldn't take long" and asked why I had brought no one with me, I said because I know what its about and I have already explained in an email. So she knew from the beginning that I had not brought anyone because I thought it was a quick interview about what we had already discussed.

dd101

thorsoak wrote: »

If you committed fraud under the age of 18 then you committed a criminal offence - and yes, you could be prosecuted for it.

I am not sure if I have committed fraud, I do not know exactly what I am accused of pre-18. I understand the wrong doing post 18 and admitted this back in June, this was the 3 weeks overpayment but the interview was 10% focused on this and the rest was about the past 4 years of my life. Very confusing! I shut the door on my 16-18 years and moved on, I blocked out a lot, I kept nothing from my past and this made the interview very difficult. I had no time to prepare and that has really annoyed me because if they had at least informed me what period they was investigating, I would have taken a solicitor with me, purely based on the fact I would not have known WHY they wanted to interview me, if that makes sense.

PippaGirl_2

It's very confusing having two threads running on the exact same issue but I will answer this one as it was started first and includes my earlier reply.

I would request all of your claim forms from when you were 16. Being 16 didn't necessarily mean you were precluded from claiming HB, but there would need to be some estrangement maybe from your family, I don't know if you fulfill that criteria. If you completed the forms correctly and accurately and they awarded you HB when they shouldn't have, then the mistake is not yours and this is not fraud. However it does still create an overpayment and you are still liable for the return of the money. But all that is a long way off. First you need to find out whether you claimed with incorrect information (get copies of your claim forms), how much the overpayment is if there is one, and then negotiate with them repayments at an affordable level if needed.

paulmapp8306

When they investigate, they dont just investigate the issue at hand - ie the overpayment. They will go into you past, purly because those who attemt to claim things there not entitled to often have a history of the same.

If they feel there are other issues in the past as well post this investigation - in this case receiving housing benefit whjen you wernt entitled to it - they will chase that as well. This will take longer sa they are uncovering information as they go.

The two events are seperate but will both be investigated.

you were wrong to claim for a period when you were not in a room, but thats hindsight. You were young, thought you were OK due to the timeframe, had contacted them at the time and have offered to pay another monies owned back.

As far as how the investigator behaved when interviewing your ex landlord - thats actually got nothing to do with you. In fact you shouldnt even know about it, its confidential really. It also doesnt need to be recorded - its information gathering. The only person who could make any complaint here is the landlord being asked questions if he felt it was inapropriate.

Tehre is more to this than at face value, due to the HB claimed at 16/17. As I said in your other post, did you read and sign the form the landlord filled in - or did you just sign it. If the latter, you could be in trouble. The landlord would know what would get the benefits paid and what wouldnt and may have included false information. Not saying that happened - just that it COULD have happened. If it did, and it was your signature on the form - your responsible.

At present though - keep calm. you havent ben accused of ANYTHING at present - your just being investigated. Speak to CAB, and you need to get some legal help ASAP - answer any future questions truthfully (even if it makes you look in the wrong - dont smudge the facts). Once you know what they are prosecuting you with (if anything), why and what the evidence is - THEN and only then can you go about defending/mitigating the issues.

dd101

paulmapp8306 wrote: »

When they investigate, they dont just investigate the issue at hand - ie the overpayment. They will go into you past, purly because those who attemt to claim things there not entitled to often have a history of the same.

If they feel there are other issues in the past as well post this investigation - in this case receiving housing benefit whjen you wernt entitled to it - they will chase that as well. This will take longer sa they are uncovering information as they go.

The two events are seperate but will both be investigated.

you were wrong to claim for a period when you were not in a room, but thats hindsight. You were young, thought you were OK due to the timeframe, had contacted them at the time and have offered to pay another monies owned back.

As far as how the investigator behaved when interviewing your ex landlord - thats actually got nothing to do with you. In fact you shouldnt even know about it, its confidential really. It also doesnt need to be recorded - its information gathering. The only person who could make any complaint here is the landlord being asked questions if he felt it was inapropriate.

Tehre is more to this than at face value, due to the HB claimed at 16/17. As I said in your other post, did you read and sign the form the landlord filled in - or did you just sign it. If the latter, you could be in trouble. The landlord would know what would get the benefits paid and what wouldnt and may have included false information. Not saying that happened - just that it COULD have happened. If it did, and it was your signature on the form - your responsible.

At present though - keep calm. you havent ben accused of ANYTHING at present - your just being investigated. Speak to CAB, and you need to get some legal help ASAP - answer any future questions truthfully (even if it makes you look in the wrong - dont smudge the facts). Once you know what they are prosecuting you with (if anything), why and what the evidence is - THEN and only then can you go about defending/mitigating the issues.

Hi,

As mentioned, I probably signed the form but based on this form they REJECTED it based on age. Landlord then provided new information and it was then awarded. I did not know about this until we got a letter saying it had been awarded. They did not give a reason accept new information, I asked the landlord and he told me he phoned up asking why they had rejected it and that the council had made a mistake. Now, I think that he KNEW that we could only get it if we was from care AFTER it initially being rejected and then submitted fraudulent documents to them to make us become untitled to it. If that is true I knew NOTHING about it, nor my flat mate and I also did NOT sign anything after it was rejected, I left it, I myself provided no new information, so whatever it was that made them change their mind, came from him.

As for the over-payment admitted, I am not worried about this, I admitted it to them and explained and I have offered to re-pay. It was only 3 weeks and that alone I am not worried about prosecution etc. I am worried however about whatever was submitted as new information when I was 16 because I carried on this form when I went to my new address, I just submitted a change of address, meaning that all the info on the old form was carried over to the new one, totaling 3 years of potentially wrongly being paid benefits. If he has forged documents I am still concerned because how am I supposed to prove it was him and not me!

dd101

paulmapp8306 wrote: »

When they investigate, they dont just investigate the issue at hand - ie the overpayment. They will go into you past, purly because those who attemt to claim things there not entitled to often have a history of the same.

If they feel there are other issues in the past as well post this investigation - in this case receiving housing benefit whjen you wernt entitled to it - they will chase that as well. This will take longer sa they are uncovering information as they go.

The two events are seperate but will both be investigated.

you were wrong to claim for a period when you were not in a room, but thats hindsight. You were young, thought you were OK due to the timeframe, had contacted them at the time and have offered to pay another monies owned back.

As far as how the investigator behaved when interviewing your ex landlord - thats actually got nothing to do with you. In fact you shouldnt even know about it, its confidential really. It also doesnt need to be recorded - its information gathering. The only person who could make any complaint here is the landlord being asked questions if he felt it was inapropriate.

Tehre is more to this than at face value, due to the HB claimed at 16/17. As I said in your other post, did you read and sign the form the landlord filled in - or did you just sign it. If the latter, you could be in trouble. The landlord would know what would get the benefits paid and what wouldnt and may have included false information. Not saying that happened - just that it COULD have happened. If it did, and it was your signature on the form - your responsible.

At present though - keep calm. you havent ben accused of ANYTHING at present - your just being investigated. Speak to CAB, and you need to get some legal help ASAP - answer any future questions truthfully (even if it makes you look in the wrong - dont smudge the facts). Once you know what they are prosecuting you with (if anything), why and what the evidence is - THEN and only then can you go about defending/mitigating the issues.

Can I just add that with regards to the interview with my ex-landlord not being my issue, it was as I had my ex-landlord calling me up, shouting down the phone wanting to know why I had claimed at his address for 4 years, which was a lie by the investigator, it had been for the 11 months I lived there and she disclosed personal information to him about my past at 16, that I was claiming then, where I lived. So obviously I wanted to look into this because I do not appreciate her making rubbish up that leads to arguments with my ex-landlord and me having to start explaining myself to people.

princessdon

dd101 wrote: »

Can I just add that with regards to the interview with my ex-landlord not being my issue, it was as I had my ex-landlord calling me up, shouting down the phone wanting to know why I had claimed at his address for 4 years, which was a lie by the investigator, it had been for the 11 months I lived there and she disclosed personal information to him about my past at 16, that I was claiming then, where I lived. So obviously I wanted to look into this because I do not appreciate her making rubbish up that leads to arguments with my ex-landlord and me having to start explaining myself to people.

No you don't KNOW what was said at that discussion, the landlords and your interpretation is the above. There is also a possibility that the interviewer said you had claimed since 16 and the landlord put 2 and 2 and made 5.

Having an Ex Landlord mad wouldn't bother most people - but I guess this is your FIL so there will be additional feelings involved.

If they believe that there is an element of fraud as opposed to a niave 16 year old then they will investigate this.

dd101

princessdon wrote: »

No you don't KNOW what was said at that discussion, the landlords and your interpretation is the above. There is also a possibility that the interviewer said you had claimed since 16 and the landlord put 2 and 2 and made 5.

Having an Ex Landlord mad wouldn't bother most people - but I guess this is your FIL so there will be additional feelings involved.

If they believe that there is an element of fraud as opposed to a niave 16 year old then they will investigate this.

The son of my ex-landlord is now my partner, has been for almost two years and the ex-landlord has told us what was said, he is not going to lie or make things up to his son and when I confronted the investigator with it, she did not deny it, the manager has said it is a concern that will be raised, so I do pretty much know everything that was said. Having an ex-landlord does bother me when its the father of a man I am now in a relationship with. Can I also add that the ex-landlord told me things he would NOT know, unless the investigator told him, such as the address I lived at, at 16, claiming at 16 (not even my partner knows this) the name of my latest landlord, that he had a criminal record for fraud (even I did not know this, he was just a landlord!)

I do not know why they would believe there is fraud, other than my first landlord lying to say I was in care, after they rejected my claim due to my age and him deciding to defraud the system. I never submitted any new information when my first claim was rejected as far as I was concerned, if I didn't get the rent paid, I would move back with family, it was not an issue for me, the landlord asked me to live there not the other way around.