Working for a living attn PaulF81

givememoney

Paul I didn't like to hijack your thread on retired people working for their pension so thought I start another.

Yours (and others) comments got me thinking about how hard people work today comparing older workers and younger.

Now of course I am not generalising, I am fully aware lots of young people work very hard and laziness isn't confined to them, as old people can be just as bad.

What I do know is though is, my experiences. Until I retired around 7 months ago I worked in an office for the NHS in a busy London Hospital.

You and I am sure many others would be horrified at the levels of absenteism amoung the clinical staff.

There were a hard core of usual suspects who were lucky if they completed a full weeks work without going off sick. This of course meant, to keep the unit running, temporary staff had to be brought in. Unfortunately, they knew if they weren't in someone else would have to fill in for them putting patients at risk if the unit was understaffed as it often was.

I remember one particular month when agency fees topped £150,000 this is for one maternity unit in one hospital. Do the sums and you realise how much all this is costing each and everyone of us.

Now of course they get `carers leave`and they made full use of this. Something unheard of in my younger days.

The problem of this as well, is you cannot get rid of useless staff as you could years ago. The sacking process is very long and protracted.

Maternity benefits now mean a woman can go off on leave for a very long time but still expect to return to her job later on. Again with my generation they expected you to leave the job to look after your child. This meant the company could then get a replacement with no added cost them.

Now to get back to when I was young at work. If you kept being off sick you would be shown the door. Although some companies (not the NHS) are reluctant to employ older people they would find they are much more reliable (partly due of course to wanting to keep their job and fear of not getting another) but if like me they were bought up on the ethic of `a fair days work for a fair days pay`you didn't abuse the system.

To be honest until I worked there I wouldn't have believed what people can get away with when it comes to getting paid for nothing.

PaulF81

Absolutely disgraceful, and abig reason why deregulation has to happen. I didn't mean to castigate one group in the other thread btw, it happened as am result of staying (mainly) on topic. The Truth is, all of us have become over reliant on the state, at the cost of personal responsibility. That goes from the top, from the banking crisis all the way to those claiming benefits they quite frankly are not entitled to.

Perhaps the problem could be solved by spending more investment in child are groups, deregulating child are requirements to a crb check and allow mothers to pool resources and allow greater workplace flexibility. Won't happen, reasons being twofold. 1) some socialist will shout elf and safety.
2) too many cottage industries at stake to nark off, besides its too much like common sense.

My wife and I ent down the old school model, ie quit once she had our first. I wouldn't have changed it, for 2 reasons: she works for a small employer who has enough stress and red tape to deal with as it is.
2) decent upbringing for child.

Graham_Devon

givememoney wrote: »

Now to get back to when I was young at work. If you kept being off sick you would be shown the door. Although some companies (not the NHS) are reluctant to employ older people they would find they are much more reliable (partly due of course to wanting to keep their job and fear of not getting another) but if like me they were bought up on the ethic of `a fair days work for a fair days pay`you didn't abuse the system.

I honestly don't recognise this. Maybe it's just the several places I work in, but there are many problems at the moment, mainly due to pay freezes and having to work 2 years longer to receive pensions turning into what seems a resent towards the business.

9 times out of 10, it's those approaching retirement, who don't necessarily need the money (mortgage paid off etc) that are the hardest to deal with, especially when it comes to employment law and changing the job role (as is happening at the moment, as it's difficult to make them redundant) and are the ones who know, and use the law to make things difficult. Twice in the last 6 months, the tribunal threat has come to the table surrounding job changes and what's expected, and both times its been from those just under 60, but those around 30-40 just get on with it....even stating they feel they are just lucky to have a job right now.

Now, I'm in no way generalising and protracting this nation wide, but certainly, from my experiences, the younger (which we have fewer of), are far more frightened of being laid off, and far more interested in showing their worth, paving a way to promotion.

They, after all, still have the mortgage, have the kids to feed. Infact, ageism appears to be creeping in at interviews, targeting those aged 25 upwards instead of those 55 plus (as was the general consensus before). Sure, there's the maternity threat, but this appears to be a price worth paying.

I guess things change, dependant on the economic landscape. Again, this is just all my own experience and is not implied as a protraction across the UK.

grizzly1911

Graham_Devon wrote: »

I honestly don't recognise this. Maybe it's just the several places I work in, but there are many problems at the moment, mainly due to pay freezes and having to work 2 years longer to receive pensions turning into what seems a resent towards the business.

and far more interested in showing their worth, paving a way to promotion.

From a little I have heard the promotion route, for younger staff, also appears to being used to circumvent the pay freeze to help retention.

This also has an added demoralising affect on those who have been in position for longer.

Graham_Devon

grizzly1911 wrote: »

From a little I have heard the promotion route, for younger staff, also appears to being used to circumvent the pay freeze to help retention.

This also has an added demoralising affect on those who have been in position for longer.

Yes, that's probably a valid point. Maybe not from my experience, but certainly in larger organisations that could be the case.

In the offices I work in (could call them branches I suppose, even though they are different business, doing the same thing!), we have huge issues getting, lets say the older workers to do anything more than required. Say an extra day if needed. However, the very youngest, and in some cases, the apprentices on appauling money, will do as much as they can extra to help themselves and the business.

Like I say, just my experience. And were certainly looking to act out a little ageism and target the younger based on these experiences with flexibility and attitude when hiring now.

You just have the danger that A) maternity will kick in and the good old monday morning sickness bug has hit them.

grizzly1911

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Yes, that's probably a valid point. Maybe not from my experience, but certainly in larger organisations that could be the case.

In the offices I work in (could call them branches I suppose, even though they are different business, doing the same thing!), we have huge issues getting, lets say the older workers to do anything more than required. Say an extra day if needed. However, the very youngest, and in some cases, the apprentices on appauling money, will do as much as they can extra to help themselves and the business.

Like I say, just my experience. And were certainly looking to act out a little ageism and target the younger based on these experiences with flexibility and attitude when hiring now.

Perhaps the older workers have got the experience of many years of HR /Change Management initiatives. They have seen the wheel turn many times and know that the results of change are not necessarily positive. They see through the veneer of "positive spin". Younger people will be more ready to "believe" and will crawl over others for short term gratification.

Unfortunately older people get "disregarded" and motivation often becomes more stick than carrot. It is no surprise that peoples views on work change as their life experiences evolve. In many cases people under go mental and physical attrition as they progrees through life and inevitably will lose some of their shine - it is not deliberate. The employer has often drained them though mixed management competence. Arguably if they are still firing fully on all cylinders they haven't been worked hard enough in the first place.

As the "managers of change" tend to be younger they will often look to the groups around them when looking to promote or reward to keep their cohort sweet.

The older set quite often get parked in roles, because they can be trusted, that get little recognition be it simple thanks or reward.

There will always be people that are "in the office" first thing and last thing to show commitment. Many of those are the least "effective" in hard productivity be they young or old.

In either camp successive pay freezes, reduction of benefits and constantly changing productivity measures often with no real effect) will demotivate whether it be private or public sector, young or old.

Poor management and leadership plagues many workplaces..

Sapphire

Graham_Devon wrote: »

In the offices I work in (could call them branches I suppose, even though they are different business, doing the same thing!), we have huge issues getting, lets say the older workers to do anything more than required. Say an extra day if needed. However, the very youngest, and in some cases, the apprentices on appauling money, will do as much as they can extra to help themselves and the business.

That isn't my experience in my profession (publishing). Older workers are incredibly dedicated – and very good at their jobs. Because they are experienced, they also manage to do work quickly and efficiently.

The attitudes among college leavers varies. They come to the profession quite 'raw' and have a lot to learn. Some recognize this and are really willing to learn, while others are simply not prepared for the world of work and act as though they are still at 'uni'. Facebook and Twitter seem very important to them. :cool:

Graham_Devon

Perhaps the over-ruling example coming from this thread, is not to simply tar any age group with a brush?