Economy 7 help :(

Sooby-Lou

This is a bit complicated, bear with me

My Mum is elderly and living in a 2 bedroom bungalow. She has no central heating and the bungalow is VERY cold, it's poorly insulated with no cavity wall insulation and no damp course so is very damp, moldy and chilly. She has 3 storage heaters, and plug-in electric heaters in the other rooms. She has two metres, the storage heaters are tied directly into an Economy 7 meter, but ONLY the heaters are on it, she doesn't get anything else cheaper at night as far as we can tell. Certainly not the hot water, she has an immersion heater which she puts on for about an hour each day.

The problem is that the Economy 7 tariff makes using the plug-in electric radiators particularly expensive Also the storage heaters come on (start storing) at 2am, totally out of whack with the typical Economy 7 tariff hours/times, which is mystifying us. They don't have timers on them that can be changed. She pays around £60 per week for her electricity, which is really far too much for a pensioner What's worse is that the house is still freezing cold even with all that! I have no idea what she can do to make this any cheaper, and Swalec (her supplier) have been absolutely no help whatsoever, they say they cannot explain why her bills are so high or suggest any way for her to reduce them. (In fact quite honestly they seem completely disinterested and couldn't answer even basic questions about her set-up.)

Any advice here would be very gratefuly received. Really she needs central heating putting in I think but we can't afford it

Cardew

Your Mother appears to have the old 'White Meter' type set up where only storage heaters are on the circuit for Economy 7 off-peak electricity - although I thought most also included the immersion heater? There is a timer that switches on this circuit.

Most properties these days are wired so all electricity is switched to E7 for 7 hours.

You could investigate how much it would cost for an electrician to change the wiring so it is like the paragraph above.

Also there is a huge variation in the prices for E7 tariffs - some have a modest premium on daytime rates over a single rate tariff.

There is absolutely no way that someone with a property that size should be able to use £60 a week. Can you post her consumption figures in kWh please.

The biggest improvements come from insulation, insulation and more insulation; and as a pensioner most of that is available free. Ring the local council and ask them what is available.

Richie-from-the-Boro

- she has got central heating, that's what the 3 storage heaters in fact are
- """ storage heaters are tied directly into an Economy 7 meter""" - that would be correct
- but the water heating should also be on that same E7 circuit
- """ Economy 7 tariff makes using the plug-in electric radiators particularly expensive""" is .. is 2 or 3 time more expensive
- """They don't have timers on them that can be changed"" - that would be correct
- """She pays around £60 per week""" £3120pa is ridiculously high and about 3 times the average

Who owns the property ? I suspect that at £3k+ per year you mum has electric fires on all day most days. Cardew is correct insulation [or lack of it] is like having a fire on all week with the windows wide open you would still be cold. Is you mum actually using the E7 heaters to store a supply of cheap electricity delivered during the night, or are they turned off ?

Plenty of opportunities for free insulation, and depending on your mothers age and benefit receipts plenty of help available with reduced tariff and other grant aided assistance.

Sooby-Lou

Thanks for both replies, you've already explained more than I knew before! Mum owns the property herself and doesn't have any mortgage still outstanding. She gets disabled living allowance as she has liver and kidney failure and very severe arthritis, but still does a little book-keeping work so her income is technically over the threshold for any grants I think, although in reality she's had to carry on working because the bills are so high

The immersion heater isn't part of the Economy & set-up because it was already there, the storage heaters were added later (about 10 years ago), Mum and Dad got a grant to have heating put in but you could only get it through the builders that were doing the work, and they would only do the bare minimum for the money, hence only 3 heaters and nothing else added in to the E7 circuit. I think they were ripped off on that grant quite honestly, they were entitled to about £1800 worth but all they got were 3 storage heaters linked directly to n E7 meter Again though because they had that grant for heating Mum can't now get anything else in the way of heating grants, she was told at the time it was a once-only grant and she wouldn't be able to have any grants in the future.

The storage heaters give out most of their heat during the night and through the morning, by lunchtime they're not really putting out any heat any more so that's when Mum has to turn on the electric radiators. She has 2 of them and they are on for about 6-8 hours a day at this time of year. I think I will do as you recommend and ask the council about insulation grants, I'm sure I must be able to bully them into something

rogerblack

Sooby-Lou wrote: »

The storage heaters give out most of their heat during the night and through the morning, by lunchtime they're not really putting out any heat any more so that's when Mum has to turn on the electric radiators. She has 2 of them and they are on for about 6-8 hours a day at this time of year. I think I will do as you recommend and ask the council about insulation grants, I'm sure I must be able to bully them into something

It sounds like she may not be operating them properly.
Is she using the heaters to keep the property warm at night, with the baffles open?
The baffles should be closed, until heat is required.
In addition, fitting new storage heaters may be fairly inexpensive.
Usually, all electricity will be at cheap rate during the night, so if she needs extra heat at night, use cheap electric oil filled radiators on a timer set to come on at night.

HappyMJ

Sooby-Lou wrote: »

Thanks for both replies, you've already explained more than I knew before! Mum owns the property herself and doesn't have any mortgage still outstanding. She gets disabled living allowance as she has liver and kidney failure and very severe arthritis, but still does a little book-keeping work so her income is technically over the threshold for any grants I think, although in reality she's had to carry on working because the bills are so high

The immersion heater isn't part of the Economy & set-up because it was already there, the storage heaters were added later (about 10 years ago), Mum and Dad got a grant to have heating put in but you could only get it through the builders that were doing the work, and they would only do the bare minimum for the money, hence only 3 heaters and nothing else added in to the E7 circuit. I think they were ripped off on that grant quite honestly, they were entitled to about £1800 worth but all they got were 3 storage heaters linked directly to n E7 meter Again though because they had that grant for heating Mum can't now get anything else in the way of heating grants, she was told at the time it was a once-only grant and she wouldn't be able to have any grants in the future.

The storage heaters give out most of their heat during the night and through the morning, by lunchtime they're not really putting out any heat any more so that's when Mum has to turn on the electric radiators. She has 2 of them and they are on for about 6-8 hours a day at this time of year. I think I will do as you recommend and ask the council about insulation grants, I'm sure I must be able to bully them into something

Is she turning the output on the storage heaters to minimum every time she goes to bed. If the output is set to minimum they really don't put out much heat until you come down in the morning and turn them up. If she isn't turning them down they will take twice as much energy to heat up as they releasing the heat just as fast as they are storing it and at the wrong time of the day.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Have a read - then come back with questions : .1. .. .3.

Your mum brought you up, scrimped and saved, but did what mums do. She knew the value of the money in her purse. That makes her an expert. When the purse [storage for the money] is empty she knows its going to be a cold hard world for her offspring - what she needed then is not a new purse but more stored money.

(1) Insulation and (2) correct understanding of the system and (3) part L compliance are the issues .. .. but the starting point is there's no difference between your mums purse and storage heaters - when they're empty they're empty. If the heaters are empty she's not storing enough of the cheap stuff to get her through the 17 hours they are switched off, the 17 hours of daytime use of expensive 'other' heaters that supplements the lack of storage is costing three times as much as the cheap night time stuff.

AP's are twice as cold as you and need to be at 20+C and completely draught free. It would be cheap money well spent to attend to sufficient storage first and insulation & Part L water later. How old and what size are the storage heaters ?

grahamc2003

According to the link, everyone can now have free loft and cavity wall insulation.

http://www.getinsulation.co.uk/grant/?gclid=CKCGuPPHwLMCFW_KtAod6CcArQ

I'd get some facts first - like ringing your mother's supplier and asking exactly what tariff she is on, and the cost, and check it's the cheapest tariff (perhaps post the infor here for comment). If she has never switched suppliers or changed tariffs, she'll be paying way over the odds and could get her electricity cheaper.

I expect her storage heaters are modern slimline ones - if they are, they should perform much better than you describe. Ensure the input is set to max and the output set to min when she goes to bed - there almost certainly will be enough heat output on those setting to make it warm in the morning, with plenty of heat left for the rest of the day (but probably not far into the evening if she likes it hot and she has poor insulation). She should wait as long as possible before turning the output up - that will ensure the storage heating lasts the longest possible time. I'd say it's the supplementary heating on day rates which is causing the stupidly high bills, and that's what needs to be minimised.

The wiring is incorrect if the water doesn't have the possibility of being heated on e7 night rates.

cutestkids

Can we remember that although everyone is now able to get free loft and cavity insulation many properties are not suitable for cavity wall insulation due to their construction.

There are no other widely available free schemes for properties that can not have cavity wall insulation and other methods of insulating these properties is costly and involves much more than just boring some holes and blasting in cavity insulation.

I know that our house is not suitable for this type of insulation and being all electric on Scottish Hydros Total Control heating system we can easily spend £50 per week on electric during the winter months and still have a house that is cold.

macman

If she is spending £60pw, it would be better to invest in modern storage heaters for the other rooms that require heating, and don't have them. The cost would quickly be recouped against paying peak rate to run the plug-in heaters (300-400% more than E7 cheap rate).
Imnpossible to give more help unless you post actual annual kWh figures on each E7 rate though.

esmecullen

Sorry to hijack the thread.............. but I have night storage heaters wired to E7 and keep the vent shut for charging overnight...............I find by 6p.m there is little or no heat coming from them when I most need it......... the evening.

We dont have gas mains where I live and putting in an alternative heating system (such as oil fired or a complete calor gas system) is not an option.............. nowhere to install it, hence the electric storage heaters, apparently the property is insulated and double glazing............. but the place is absolutely freezing of a night during the winter (all windows are shut, except for the vents). I do have a medium size calor fire, but even that is expensive buying the bottles

Is there anything I can do to keep the place warm of a winter........... I dont want to go through another bad winter like 2010

Thanks