New Kitchen: anyone know of Pronorm "Compactline"?

Frog_Prince

Hi

I can purchase a Pronorm kitchen for the same price as one from John Lewis' entry-level "City Gloss" range. The Pronorm design is from their "Compactline" range, normally sold to the contract market. Is this still a good deal?

Also, what is the difference between gloss melamine and gloss laminate doors?

Many thanks.

evokit

dont look at contract kitchens, the council estate down the road could have these yet you pay 1000's for yours.
If you want a nice gloss door you shoule look at lacquer or parapan ( soild acrylic, not acrylic over coat)
melamine will be wrapped, can peal - laminate has an abs edge wont peel due to the compressed edge but......always a but
you can tell theres an edge as shows.
lacquer is all round painted face and sides and same colour back yet the back not lacquered (unless asked for)
same as anything - what you wanna spend and how much eye to detail for you

Frog_Prince

I'm confused. After reading all the other MSE threads on this subject, I was under the impression that MFC comes with edging, not a wrap, especially if it's made in Germany.

To add to the confusion, John Lewis' fitted kitchen specialist told me today that
i) their MFC, Pronorm's gloss melamine and other manufacturers' gloss laminate are all the same thing and that
ii) everything will have some kind of wrap, but it's always impermeable in everyday conditions.

I don't know if all that is true.

However, JL have high gloss slab/glass effect edging door in the City range which reflects light far more evenly than the bumpy "orange peel" mfc/gloss melamine/gloss laminate. It's a more expensive look for the same price.

And possibly more exclusive too, if Pronorm's "Compactline" kitchen really is found in council houses.

PS I'd like to know what a "slab" door actually is.

evokit

Hi Frog prince, your JL designer has misinformed you a little.
Lacquer doors have no wrap at all as there painted then lacquered over
Slab door is just a flat door.
The glass effect edge door has a pvc edge in a silver effect to give the glass effect look, depending where you get these some are also over lacquered giving that extra shine as thats what the over lacquer does.
JL's door is over lacquered but i would seriously recomend to find someone else whom supplies these as JL will be 1000's more and these doors re normally cost effective.

ryder72

Hi Frog Prince

Lets clarify some things-

Most German manufacturers do a contract range. These are intended for large housing developments and in the UK they are almost always specified on higher-end developments. I can't image they would do into a single council house in the country. For instance the Imperial Wharf development in Vauxhall, London had Poggenpohl contract kitchens and the cheapest flats sold for £500k. I doubt if they would specify the same kitchens as council houses.

Gloss laminate and gloss melamine are interchangeably used. They aren't the same thing though. Gloss laminate is a high pressure laminate (HPL) and is a harder wearing glossier surface with a flatter surface used for kitchen doors while gloss melamine is a lower grade polished melamine used for visible sides/plinths etc. Cheaper kitchens will often use gloss melamine for doors. Both will have an applied edges. Advances mean that gloss laminate doors can now have laser applied edges making the join nearly invisible.
Main thing to note is that there is nothing wrong with gloss laminate doors. They are more scratch resistance than lacquers or acrylics and cost effective too. The biggest downside is that the surface isnt as glossy as a lacquer or acrylic. A well made laminate door will not delaminate in normal use. It certainly wont peel.

Lacquers come in 2 types - full lacquered doors on MDF frames with no joins and lacquered on foil. The latter is the cheaper alternative and one can feel the join between the foil and the back. This can peel off in time. The former is more expensive but much nicer.

All lacquers are expensive and this is where acrylic comes in. Personally I would like to find out what disadvantage an overlaid acrylic door has over a solid acrylic door apart from the applied edge. They have similar properties. Manufacturing technique advances mean that the applied edge is laser applied and make it near invisible and cheaper too so you can now have acrylic door that looks like a lacquer for a lot less money

I can't specifically comment on the materials used on JL's doors so what the salesman has mentioned may or may not be correct.

However point 2 is categorically wrong. A foil or vinyl wrap as the name suggests is wrapped. But these are the only type of doors that are wrapped. A laminate, lacquer (unless is lacquer on foil) or acrylic door isn't a wrap.

All wrapped doors are prone to failure and if anyone tells you that their wrapped doors don't fail, they are being economical with the truth. They do and often in normal conditions. It only take the slightest amount of heat, humidity or a tiny manufacturing flaw for these doors to peel. My advise would be to avoid a wrapped door at all costs.

I am pretty certain that the 'glass effect' door is an acrylic door which are shinier and flatter. Its a good choice, but less scratch resistant than laminates.

Meepster

^^^^ What ryder72 said...

Frog_Prince

Thank you, evokit and ryder, you've helped a lot but let me see if I understand:

1) melamine will be wrapped, can peel (post #2)
2) Gloss laminate is a high pressure laminate (HPL) and is a harder wearing glossier surface with a flatter surface used for kitchen doors while gloss melamine is lower grade polished melamine... Cheaper kitchens will often use gloss melamine for doors. Both will have an applied edges. (post #3)
3) A well made laminate door will not delaminate in normal use. It certainly wont peel. (post #3)
4) A laminate, lacquer (unless is lacquer on foil) or acrylic door isn't a wrap. (post #3)

From the above, can we say that:

a) Gloss melamine is better described as polished melamine.
b) Polished melamine doors have applied edging and a wrap (see 1) & 2) above).
c) All wraps will peel.
d) Gloss laminates have applied edging but no wrap. They do not peel. They are superior in performance to melamines, but not necessarily aesthetically.
e) Acrylics have applied edging and possibly lacquer. They are superior aesthetically to laminates, but not necessarily in performance.
f) Therefore, the only doors that are wrapped are melamines (see 1), 3) and 4)). Avoid melamines.

ryder72

Hi Frogprince

See corrections

Thank you, evokit and ryder, you've helped a lot but let me see if I understand:

1) melamine will be wrapped, can peel (post #2)
WRONG - Melamine is NOT wrapped. Its a flat surface, polished or unpolished with an applied. It will NOT peel but can delaminate.

2) Gloss laminate is a high pressure laminate (HPL) and is a harder wearing glossier surface with a flatter surface used for kitchen doors while gloss melamine is lower grade polished melamine...
Cheaper kitchens will often use gloss melamine for doors. Both will
have an applied edges. (post #3)

CORRECT

3) A well made laminate door will not delaminate in normal use. It certainly wont peel. (post #3)
CORRECT

4) A laminate, lacquer (unless is lacquer on foil) or acrylic door isn't a wrap. (post #3)
CORRECT

From the above, can we say that:

a) Gloss melamine is better described as polished melamine.
YES

b) Polished melamine doors have applied edging and a wrap (see 1) & 2) above).
NO. See above

c) All wraps will peel.
WRONG. Wraps are prone to peeling. That doesnt mean they WILL.

d) Gloss laminates have applied edging but no wrap. They do not peel. They are superior in performance to melamines, but not necessarily aesthetically.
PARTIALLY CORRECT. They have applied edges and do not peel. They look better than gloss melamines but dearer too.

e) Acrylics have applied edging and possibly lacquer. They are superior aesthetically to laminates, but not necessarily in performance.
Acrylics usually have applied edges unless they are solid doors (brand Parapan). Rest of your statements are right.

f) Therefore, the only doors that are wrapped are melamines (see 1), 3) and 4)). Avoid melamines.
Melamines are not wrapped but if you are happy to buy a slab door with gloss and the budget doesnt stretch to acrylic or lacquer, then try and look for a gloss laminate (HPL) before gloss melamine.

holengarth

I would stick with the main Pronorm ranges, the features and hardware are much better. They have a laminated gloss door with a PP edge and a laser finish which completely hides the join so it appears to be like a lacquered finish. Best white gloss is the lacquer but the PP edge is much cheaper and looks brilliant. If you search on the Internet for Pronorm kitchens you will find companies like ours who sell them at 25 - 40% less than High Street only retailers and you can then have the better quality at the Compactline price.