Law help. Aftermarket HIDs, illegal?

tbourner

Thanks to GolfBravo and Joe Horner for attempting to answer.

rxbren wrote: »

they have to have domes in the the lenses (to stop the light scattering)
also must have headlight washers
im sure the last two are now an not fail-although may pass depending on the tester

rev_henry wrote: »

retrofit HIDs cannot be road legal. When factory fitted they must be accompanied with headlamp washers and self levelling.

Those are MOT points, not law. Without 'domes' (or projector lenses) the light will scatter and fail the beam pattern test. The washers and auto-levelling are only relevant if fitted, they don't HAVE to be fitted, see below.

SCO wrote: »

you might find the law is not in force till the MOT change, only thing your could do is write/e-mail to the dept of transport or VOSA.

I did! And I'm pretty sure the MOT rules changed in April, and I know of several people with HIDs in various cars that have passed since then.
I wrote to VOSA earlier in the year, asking this:

Trev wrote:

The biggest question seems to be over after market HID kits, do they require washers and auto-levelling to be fitted?
The first evidence that people come up with is the PEN:
<Link no longer works>
Which suggests “after-market systems should be required to meet the same safety standards as that applied in respect of these lamps at vehicle Type Approval. Therefore, in order to pass the MOT test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp cleaning and self-levelling systems”, but then the MOT Inspection Manual:
http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/doitonline/bl/mottestingmanualsandguides/mottestingmanualsandguides.htm
Says that “...headlamps may be fitted with headlamp washers and a suspension or headlamp self levelling system. Where such systems are fitted, they must work”, so the vehicle will only fail an MOT if the systems are there but don’t work, rather than if they’re not installed at all.

The reply was:

VOSA wrote:

For legal advice on the fitment of HID kits I would advise to contact DfT and I've attached a link to a statement on their web site
http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/doitonline/bl/mottestingmanualsandguides/mottestingmanualsandguides.htm
From an MOT perspective the Inspection Manual (IM) applies to passenger vehicles and if presented for test with HID headlamps it will be tested accordingly.
However the IM does advise that it is not always possible to readily determine whether HID lamps are fitted and if there is doubt "benefit of doubt" should be given.

He also added this:

VOSA wrote:

may I clarify something regarding HID lights. HID lamps that have an output of less than 2000 Lumens do not need headlamp levelling or washing. LED lamps under 2000 Lumens must have self levelling, but do not need washing.

It is also not possible for an MOT tester to determine whether or not a particular lamp is more than 2000 Lumens or not. The MOT test therefore uses the lowest criteria that can realistically be applied; so if a particular vehicle is fitted with a headlamp levelling or washing system, then we consider it logical to assume that it requires it by law and therefore it must work.

MOT and law are 2 separate things. From the MOT inspection manual:

Vehicles equipped with High Intensity Discharge (HID) or LED dipped beam headlamps may be fitted with headlamp washers and a suspension or headlamp self levelling system. Where such systems are fitted, they must work; however, it is accepted that it may not be possible to readily determine the functioning of self levelling systems. In such cases, the benefit of the doubt must be given.

So you cannot fail an MOT for having HIDs in non-HID headlamps, you can only fail on other MOT points like beam pattern, exposed (dangerous) wiring etc. etc.
You could however be pulled over as you exit the garage and be done by the Police, which is the point of this thread, to find out how and why exactly that can happen.

atrixblue.-MFR-.

most HID fake cheap chinease tat from fleabay, produce a perminant output of deep blue light, this contreviens to a moving traffic offence and £60 fine can be applied to the driver, if the copper wants to be really to the T on that he can order the car off the road untill such time that the lights are corrected and have been re-tested.

same as if you were to put those blue/red/white LED washer jet fixings on that chavs had years ago. youd get pulled by the police.

unless you see the kit working know what it produces light wise, then fleaby kits are a gamble.

if for instance the face lift model of your car has the HID factory lamps and are the same style and fitment then you could buy those and purchase the ignitor boxes from the parts department of the dealers and scrappy for the wiring harness and relay.

i could do this with my car being that they only changed the bumper style and grill the lights are exactly the same in shape and fitment, all id have to do is buy a second hand set from e-bay with harness and run purchase the rest i need for the convertion wither by fleabay dealer or scrapyard.

tbourner

atrixblue.-MFR-. wrote: »

most HID fake cheap chinease tat from fleabay, produce a perminant output of deep blue light, this contreviens to a moving traffic offence and £60 fine can be applied to the driver, if the copper wants to be really to the T on that he can order the car off the road untill such time that the lights are corrected and have been re-tested.

Yeah that's cos most chavs buy 6000K lights or higher, you can get 30,000K HIDs on eBay, which are a dark purple colour!!! People think it's cool, I think the most common is 8000K or 10,000K, but seeing as standard factory fit Xenons are 4300K, that's why they usually look blue.



I always recommend 4300K to people looking at getting HIDs, and 3000K for fog lights (cos higher colour temps refract in the fog and cause glare).

Notmyrealname

tbourner wrote: »

So, is it illegal? Could the Police pull you over and say you're not complying with The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 and therefore......... ?? What's the crime? What's the punishment? What happens if you refuse and tell them to prove it's not factory fit?

OK I also know you're not likely to get pulled, but I don't like breaking the law even the ones nobody cares about.

If the HID lights are not self levelling, they don't comply with the C&U and won't pass a MOT. Its not whether or not they're factory fit, it is whether or not they're self levelling.

If you've bought a decent kit it will be. If you've bought a £200 Ebay special, expect to fail the MOT.

The police have the power to issue a prohibition notice which could be anything from a drive home and get it sorted to immediate where the only place your car is going is on a recovery wagon and you cannot use your car on the road until it is rectified and the prohibition lifted by VOSA.

Notmyrealname

gilbert_and_sullivan wrote: »

High time VOSA were given stop and inspect/enforce powers for cars as well as commercial vehicles,

They do have them. I've seen many cars usually with caravans being pulled into the VOSA checkpoint near Chester.

tbourner

Notmyrealname wrote: »

If the HID lights are not self levelling, they don't comply with the C&U and won't pass a MOT. Its not whether or not they're factory fit, it is whether or not they're self levelling.

You're still getting confused with MOT and C&U.

The MOT inspection manual, section 1.7:
http://www.motinfo.gov.uk/htdocs/m4s01000701.htm
Says

Vehicles equipped with High Intensity Discharge (HID) or LED dipped beam headlamps may be fitted with headlamp washers and a suspension or headlamp self levelling system.
Where such systems are fitted, they must work; however, it is accepted that it may not be possible to readily determine the functioning of self levelling systems. In such cases, the benefit of the doubt must be given.

MAY BE fitted.
WHERE SUCH SYSTEMS ARE FITTED, they must work.

Method of Inspection:

Where HID or LED dipped beam headlamps are fitted, switch on the headlamps and check the operation of any headlamp levelling and cleaning devices fitted.

Reason for Rejection:

A headlamp levelling or cleaning device inoperative or otherwise obviously defective.

If they're not fitted, it's assumed it's not an HID system, they HAVE to give the benefit of the doubt, they HAVE to assume it's less than 2000 lumens, this has been confirmed by VOSA themselves, see the replies above.

The C&U regs are completely different to the MOT test. They're not linked in any way. They have no relevance to each other except that they happen to overlap (cos they both relate to vehicles).

brat

From a police perspective, badly fitted lights that dazzle will cause you to get a pull. If it's down to poor fitting of aftermarket HIDs then you'll likely get a VDR (Vehicle defect rectification) form to require you to effect a repair to avoid prosecution for the dazzle/ illegal lights.

GolfBravo

Aftermarket HID "conversion kits" should be just outlawed. Full stop.

You can read more about these "HID upgrades" here.

And here are some interesting excerpts:

Halogen headlamps and HID headlamps require very different optics to produce a safe and effective—not to mention legal—beam pattern. How come? Because of the very different characteristics of the two kinds of light source.

....

When designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the characteristics of the light source are the driving factor around which everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the light source, you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's eyeglasses: You can probably make them fit on your face OK, but you won't see properly.

....

Now, what about those "retrofit" jobs in which the beam cutoff still appears sharp? Don't be fooled; it's an error to judge a beam pattern solely by its cutoff. In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID capsule, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun—whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light under the cutoff.

....

The most dangerous part of the attempt to "retrofit" Xenon headlamps is that sometimes you get a deceptive and illusory "improvement" in the performance of the headlamp. The performance of the headlamp is perceived to be "better" because of the much higher level of foreground lighting (on the road immediately in front of the car). However, the beam patterns produced by this kind of "conversion" virtually always give less distance light, and often an alarming lack of light where there's meant to be a relative maximum in light intensity. The result is the illusion that you can see better than you actually can, and that's not safe.

Definitely worth reading.

tbourner

brat wrote: »

From a police perspective, badly fitted lights that dazzle will cause you to get a pull. If it's down to poor fitting of aftermarket HIDs then you'll likely get a VDR (Vehicle defect rectification) form to require you to effect a repair to avoid prosecution for the dazzle/ illegal lights.

Do you know the details? Like what the VDR form states as being not compliant with, ie: is it Construction and Use regs? Or RVLR? Or is it a law of some kind?

tbourner

GolfBravo wrote: »

Aftermarket HID "conversion kits" should be just outlawed. Full stop.

You can read more about these "HID upgrades" here.

And here are some interesting excerpts:


Definitely worth reading.

I've seen that before, it's a good read.