Universal Credits - Self Employed

charlotte4940

I am on here looking for advice and some people are just criticising and not helping at all.

I also forgot to add he does not work on Fridays. He looks after our child all day as she is not in childcare then.

Maybe I am getting confused. To clarify - he does not own the business however he may go to customers and do quotes and go to the wholesalers. Prices paid by the customer are nothing to do with him. Also another problem is if there is bad weather eg rain he is unable to work as he cannot get on the roofs properly without the risk of falling off so how is this going to be taken into account for universal credit if working conditions are not right?

princessdon

charlotte4940 wrote: »

I am on here looking for advice and some people are just criticising and not helping at all.

I also forgot to add he does not work on Fridays. He looks after our child all day as she is not in childcare then.

Maybe I am getting confused. To clarify - he does not own the business however he may go to customers and do quotes and go to the wholesalers. Prices paid by the customer are nothing to do with him. Also another problem is if there is bad weather eg rain he is unable to work as he cannot get on the roofs properly without the risk of falling off so how is this going to be taken into account for universal credit if working conditions are not right?

Not relevant - if he isn't working 16 hours a week then every week he doesn't means you are NOT entitled to childcare. From what you say 6hrs a week isn't 16. You owe a lot of money if this is the case, if he is paid more and you are not declaring true income he needs to justify hours to 16.

BigAunty

charlotte4940 wrote: »

...
Also another problem is if there is bad weather eg rain he is unable to work as he cannot get on the roofs properly without the risk of falling off so how is this going to be taken into account for universal credit if working conditions are not right?

If you are asking if hours for a cancelled job can be included as business related work for the purposes of claiming tax credits/UC, then no. The current HMRC guidelines for self employed claimants are specific that only directly related business activities with the expectation of renumeration for the work can be counted. Perhaps I have misunderstood what you are asking.

That said, I assume that most jobs are postponed and take place later rather than are totally cancelled?

John_Pierpoint

charlotte4940 wrote: »

I am on here looking for advice and some people are just criticising and not helping at all.

I also forgot to add he does not work on Fridays. He looks after our child all day as she is not in childcare then.

Maybe I am getting confused. To clarify - he does not own the business however he may go to customers and do quotes and go to the wholesalers. Prices paid by the customer are nothing to do with him. Also another problem is if there is bad weather eg rain he is unable to work as he cannot get on the roofs properly without the risk of falling off so how is this going to be taken into account for universal credit if working conditions are not right?

Hi charlotte,

I am not criticising, in fact I am rather pleased that you husband is trying to make the best of a tough situation, but let us be honest this sounds like a servant to me:
He does not own the business however he may [be sent][STRIKE] go [/STRIKE]to customers and do quotes and[be sent][STRIKE] go [/STRIKE] to the wholesalers. Prices paid by [STRIKE]the[/STRIKE] [his master's] customers are nothing to do with him.


This is exactly why the small business man employing him wants to pretend he is self employed - bigger firms are getting away with creating something called a "zero hours" contract but their employees still have some rights that they cannot wriggle out of. For example when you husband falls off a roof and is in a wheelchair for the rest of his life what sort of insurance does he have available to him. (*)
Who was allowing him to avoid the working at height regulations - oh he was self employed and taking a chance at his own risk?
Along side this employment he has his own tiny self employed business on the side, which might cause a falling out with his master when he "pinches" a big contract and his master gets jealous.

Your only other personal problem is that rules are being broken and your child subsidy is at risk.

Can your husband up his game and get a serious amount of work in his own name? So he will be able to pay his own insurance premium and be completely "legit" ?

John

(*) As you husband falls off the roof, the hod full of tiles he was lifting up there crashes down onto the home owner's little child, who should never have been anywhere near a building site.
What does your husband's employer's public liability insurance certificate say ? Have you ever seen it?. Do you know which insurance company issued it? How many servants/sub contractors does it cover?

charlotte4940

I now understand that the reason he wants him to be self employed is so he can drastically under pay him!!
I do know that the business does have liability insurance although im not sure who with. Should he take out his own insurance even though he does not have a business of his own?

In order to do the right thing should we ask the business owner for a minimum of 20 hours per week at minimum wage then my partner can invoice him and we are doing nothing wrong? If this is possible from the business otherwise i see no alternative than for him to give up work.

I also have another question - I saw on another forum that when universal credit comes in only one partner will be required to work 35 hours per week while the other can opt for part time hours if they have children under the age of 12. once the child reaches the age of 12 they will both be required to work full time. Has anyone else heard this?

Pedent

charlotte4940 wrote: »

I am on here looking for advice and some people are just criticising and not helping at all.

Okay, let's go back to your original question:

charlotte4940 wrote: »

Please could someone help with my situation

I work employed 37 hours per week earning £16750 per year. my partner works 20 hours per week self employed earning £3000 per year. we are not entitled to hb,ctb or wtc but are entitled to child tax credit and help with childcare costs.

This may be incorrect. To be entitled to help with childcare costs, you must each work at least 16 hours/week. You later say that your partner earns £70/day, and has zero expenses. Given his income, this suggests that he works 43 days/year, which is less than 1 day/week. If he isn't working 16 hours/week, then you aren't entitled to help with childcare costs, and if this is discovered then at best you'll have to repay what you've received in error, and could face more serious consequences. You should make absolutely sure that your claim is in order, and that you can demonstrate that it is.

charlotte4940 wrote: »

with UC coming in how would i be affected? would my partner have to prove he is working 20 hours per week or would they say you should be earning a certain amount and this is what we will use as your income?

It depends.

Regarding proving that he's working sufficient hours, there was certainly talk of requiring self-employed claimants to attend gateway interviews and provide proof that their self-employment is genuine (see http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/uc-draft-regs-2012-memorandum.pdf, paragraph 162). Gainful self-employed is defined by http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/regulation/64 as:

(a)the claimant is carrying on a trade, profession or vocation as their main employment;
(b)their earnings from that trade, profession or vocation are self-employed earnings; and
(c)the trade, profession or vocation is organised, developed, regular and carried on in expectation of profit.

Claimants who fail to demonstrate that they are in gainful self-employment will be treated as unemployed. For some, this will mean that they have to make themselves available for and actively seek employment in order to claim.

As your partner appears to get paid for less than 1 day/week, on average, it's questionable whether his trade is organised, developed and regular, so it's possible that he won't be accepted as self-employed. Even if he is accepted as self-employed, if he's earning less than he could and working fewer hours than he could, then he could still be required to seek more or better paid work.

However, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/regulation/99 states that this conditionality won't be imposed where the claimant is part of a couple whose combined earnings are sufficiently high, which may or may not include you, depending on what counts as sufficiently high.

Regarding saying that he should be earning a certain amount, under Universal Credit a Minimum Income Floor will be introduced, which will mean that some self-employed claimants who earn less than the minimum wage (for the hours that they're able to work given limiting factors such as childcare responsibilities) will be assessed as if they earned the minimum wage, reducing the amount that they receive in benefits.

However, you'll be assessed as a family, and if I've understood http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/regulation/62 correctly, then as long as a couple's combined earnings are above their combined Minimum Income Floors then they won't have their award reduced.

You say that your partner can't work on Fridays because he looks after your daughter. Taking that into account, I'd be surprised if your combined Minimum Income Floor was above £22278 (35 hours/week at minimum wage for you full-time and him four days/week). That's only a little more than your combined earnings of £19750, so the Minimum Income Floor shouldn't affect you too much, if at all, in your current circumstances.

charlotte4940 wrote: »

im worried they will say we are not entitled to help with childcare costs if we cannot prove he works 20 hours per week which would mean he would have to stop working as we would not be able to afford childcare and apply for hb and ctb?

This could be more of a problem for you.

To be eligible for the childcare element of Universal Credit, you will both have to be working (see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/regulation/32). If your partner is accepted as genuinely self-employed then that should be fine. If he isn't, then you won't be eligible.

Also, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/regulation/34 suggests that the amount of help with childcare under Universal Credit will depend on how many hours parents work:

In determining the amount of charges paid for relevant childcare, there is to be left out of account any amount that the Secretary of State considers excessive having regard to the extent to which the claimant (or, if the claimant is a member of a couple, the other member) is engaged in paid work.

As discussed above, your partner's earnings don't seem to be consistent with full-time work, or even with 20 hours/week, so it's possible that you'll find that you're only entitled to limited help with childcare.

That said, remember that all pre-school children are entitled to 15 hours/week free childcare from the age of 3, which is at least close to enough (and perhaps more than enough) to allow your partner to continue his current level of work.

charlotte4940 wrote: »

how can they take help with childcare costs away from someone to prevent them from work and making them unemployed?

The problem is that your partner's self-employment doesn't seem to be going particularly well. If he can make a success of it, then you'll be eligible for help with childcare costs to allow him to continue to do it. If he can't, then he may be expected to stop doing it and either find employment or provide your childcare himself. The thinking, whether right or wrong, is that supporting him to keep doing what he's doing now isn't a good use of public money, and isn't particularly good for him either.

You asked for advice, so I'll try to finish on a practical note: these would be my two priorities:

1. Ensure that your partner is consistently and demonstrably working at least 16 hours/week. That will ensure that your current childcare claim is in order. If you can't do that, then you need to stop claiming for childcare. If that means that you can't afford childcare, then your partner may have to give up his self-employment to provide it.
2. Find a way to get your combined income high enough that the two of you earn more than the equivalent of the minimum wage for all of the hours that you could work given your childcare commitments (taking care of point 1 may achieve this). That should mean that under Universal Credit, you won't have your claim reduced due to your partner's low earnings, and will make it less likely that your partner will be required to look for other work.

I don't have advice for what you should do if you find that your childcare claim hasn't been in order previously, as I don't know enough about what happens in those circumstances, or the extent to which you'd be able to cope with the consequences. Ideally you'd explain that you'd claimed in error, and repay the resulting overpayment. Perhaps someone else will be able to provide more information about the process, so that you can make an informed decision about what to do if that's the situation that you're in.

Pedent

charlotte4940 wrote: »

I also have another question - I saw on another forum that when universal credit comes in only one partner will be required to work 35 hours per week while the other can opt for part time hours if they have children under the age of 12. once the child reaches the age of 12 they will both be required to work full time. Has anyone else heard this?

Yes, this is in the draft legislation at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/regulation/88. A claimant who is the responsible carer for a child under 13 (not under 12, as you'd heard) will be considered able to work "the number of hours that the Secretary of State considers is compatible with the child’s normal school hours".

charlotte4940

Pedent wrote: »

Yes, this is in the draft legislation at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/regulation/88. A claimant who is the responsible carer for a child under 13 (not under 12, as you'd heard) will be considered able to work "the number of hours that the Secretary of State considers is compatible with the child’s normal school hours".

When you say normal school hours will that could if you have a child that is not old enough to be at school? my child is only one.

im not too worried about the overpayment at the minute as we have only claimed child care for 1 month But i do need to get this sorted and see if he can work for minimum wage and produce an invoice for it.

shedboy94

charlotte4940 wrote: »

When you say normal school hours will that could if you have a child that is not old enough to be at school? my child is only one.

im not too worried about the overpayment at the minute as we have only claimed child care for 1 month But i do need to get this sorted and see if he can work for minimum wage and produce an invoice for it.

Doesn't matter how long you have been claiming, and it may not just be a case of an o/p when they catch up with you and discover you have been fraudulantly claiming.

Pedent

charlotte4940 wrote: »

When you say normal school hours will that could if you have a child that is not old enough to be at school? my child is only one.

No, I'm sure that only applies to parents of school age children. For parents of younger children, I think the relevant wording is "the number of hours that the Secretary of State considers is compatible with those caring responsibilities".

This may be of interest too: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531938/regulation/91. It seems to say that the lead carer for pre-school age children will only be subject to work-focused interviews, not to the stronger forms of conditionality.

charlotte4940 wrote: »

im not too worried about the overpayment at the minute as we have only claimed child care for 1 month But i do need to get this sorted and see if he can work for minimum wage and produce an invoice for it.

That's good to know. And yes, if you're going to keep claiming then you really do need to get this sorted (but note that right now it's your partner's hours that could get you into trouble, not his earnings, even if it would be good to address both).