Housing Benefit, Adult Non-Dependants

Befuzzled

My woes with Edinburgh Council are a bit long to list, after taking over 8 months to sort me out initially and already paying back £496 of an overpayment from December (which I rang about when I saw the payment, and was told firmly was correct, payment of backdated arrears, not an error, and which I could spend to pay off other debts, only to have it automatically be taken from me each month after that with no notice).

Now, I had two friends stay with me for a couple of months while they looked for work, not being able to afford a flat and unsure if they were staying in the city or would find work elsewhere. Naturally I let them stay for nothing given how bad their situation was (basically homeless), and they signed on to Job Seekers using my address (I think this was the big mistake).

Now the Council tells me they are 'adult non-dependants', I owe them £252 backdated to when they arrived, and have my housing Benefit cut by £90pm more. (So the shortfall in my rent is now £170pm, with £40pm already being taken from Dec and it having never covered my full rent).

Is there anything I can do here? I assumed, rather naively, that the two staying with me would be treated like any other flatmates just, not people I'm 'caring' for! When they sent a letter asking (noting the dates they started claiming Jobseekers from here, I'm guessing how they found out), I let them know the dates they moved in and that they weren't claiming any housing benefit, thinking that would be the end of it.

One of the girls is back off to Spain and says she'll help with what she can, and the other is in no position to pay anything. I'm already a month behind on my rent with the landlord, this will put me two, and I'm meant to sign the new lease on the 9th Oct. Somehow I don't think they're going to let me do that owing them that much. (I've no idea what I'm going to do then to be honest)

Seems, honestly, that the Council are just following the right regulations and whatnot and I just didn't know them, and I don't want to lie or cheat the system (I guess I may unknowingly have been doing so?), but knowing that doesn't help my position any. (If I had known in advance I could have maybe sorted something with the girls). I'm sending them a letter letting them know when one moved out which should alleviate things, but is there anything else I can do, getting them classed as 'flatmates' rather than 'adult non-dependants'?

Cheers folks.

BigAunty

Here are the rules for non-dependant deductions. They may fall within the definition of non-dependants for the purposes of benefits even though they may have been your flat mates for the purpose of the tenancy (two different things) but an organisation like CAB or Shelter can help confirm if this is the case.

not your husband, wife, civil partner or partner (including same-sex partners)
someone you do not claim child benefit for
over the age of 18.

http://scotland.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/advice_topics/paying_for_a_home/housing_and_council_tax_benefit/how_housing_benefit_is_calculated#6

Here is it defined as

"A non dependant is someone over 18 who normally lives with you on a non commercial basis such as an adult son, daughter, relative or friend."

Though I cannot find the table on the edinburgh council website, I think NDDs are defined nationally but do check in case it is different in Scotland.

The purpose of NDDs is so that those with some income (including certain types of benefits) pay a little towards their keep rather than the taxpayer funding them all for free. You aren't considered to be their carer - they are considered to NOT be a dependent and therefore are seen as able contribute towards the household kitty.

Their age and type of JSA will determine if the NDD takes place.

http://www.hackney.gov.uk/f-non-dependant-deductions.htm

See if the local council will pay any discretionary housing payment towards the shortfall between your rent and LHA, not sure if this applies to you but you can only ask (and then it will only be temporary and one-off), doubt that they will pay it to cover monies owed by NDDs.

EDIT - the above website says a subtenant is not an ND. The Shelter website gives a definition of what a subtenant is, doubt if your friends could be described as subtenants if they were not paying rent to you but Shelter Scotland will know.

http://scotland.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/advice_topics/renting_rights/subtenants

BigAunty

Befuzzled wrote: »

...

One of the girls is back off to Spain and says she'll help with what she can, and the other is in no position to pay anything. I'm already a month behind on my rent with the landlord, this will put me two, and I'm meant to sign the new lease on the 9th Oct. Somehow I don't think they're going to let me do that owing them that much. (I've no idea what I'm going to do then to be honest)
.

Why is one of the girls who is receiving JSA unable to pay towards your rent and council tax - it should only be a modest amount? Why does she think it is acceptable for you to take the hit?! Doesn't she understand that you are directly penalised by the council and that you are prevening her from being homeless - what is wrong with her? Is she getting £71 a week JSA?

Sit her down with the paperwork. You need to tell her that she owes you x in arrears and x currently each week and if she doesn't cooperate, you need to tell her to go and tell the council she is homeless because you are serving her notice, you can't afford to keep her.

The Shelter website has good info about how to deal with and prevent arrears.

You could also bring the delays and lack of proactive notification of the NDDs by the council to your MSP, how they may lead to your future eviction. MSPs are there to serve you.

pmlindyloo

Here are the rates for non dependants for Aberdeenshire which I guess are the same:

http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/benefits/Non-DependantDeductionsFrequentlyAskedQuestions.asp#ratesctb

There will be a nil reduction for council tax as they were on JSA but there is a deduction for Housing Benefit.

As already said, the girls should have been paying you something each week out of their JSA.

Befuzzled

Thanks folks for all of this, and that table looks correct pmlindyloo. 11.45pw x2 people gives about the £90pm. I guess there's nothing to do but try and work out between us how we can sort things out. At the very least I need to cover this months rent. My friend who's still here has already found another to move in with in a flat where everyone works, allbeit on the couch, so nobody will be hit with this there. (And I feel like a bit of a !!!!!! for having to let her know and almost forcing her into that, but it is what it is).

With regards to the girls, they didn't budget for this and having a £170 odd bill out of the blue is hard to cover (mind you, harder even for me having double that). One of them was let down by the Spanish government to the tune of over £5500 (a loan for a Masters course that was withdrawn after being promised to all students) and owes a lot of people. (it was delayed, and delayed so she borrowed from friends and family and expected the loan to cover them when it arrived, which it never did, we all lent to her expecting the loan, so it hit quite a few people). I've pretty much written that off, as I always do if I lend to friends or family, so this will just add to that I expect.

Thus why she is living on the kindness of friends while trying to find work. Saying that though, had we known when she was living here this was to be paid/reduced, she of course would have paid each week/month, just didn't budget for it. My other friend is a bit better off so is going to cover this month and start paying me back for the rest.

At least I know where I stand now. If things get to the point of eviction I'll definitely be into shelter or the CAB, I'll see what my landlord says on Monday. I'm well enough again to work as well (though that's up and down the last year) so good news soon on that front could put my mind at rest at least.

Oh and I've already applied for a discretionary housing benefit payment having been made aware it even existed, but I asked for the forms 3 times over 2 months and never got them, then finally found them online and haven't had a response after about a month, so I'm not holding out much hope for that. (It doesn't cover my overpayment repayments, even due to their errors, and I'm sure won't for NDDs either).

I can't see how complaining to the MSP or themselves would do much? I have had a lot of problems and and am rightly rather angry, but, in the end, even if it took a long time in some cases, I haven't had more or less from them than the correct amount. And as I understand it, there's no way to waive or alter amounts owed, even if their timing has been absolutely terrible and the mistakes have been on their end? I'm more the sort to not rock the boat if there's nothing to really be gained from it.

Anyway, thanks all.

mrs_motivated

I am not sure about Scotland law but in England. Adult non deps are defined my 'normally residing'. In your case , helping out, sleeping on sofa for two months is not normally residing and you should not have to pay. Lots of case law detailing this.

Most local authorities, based on this case law allow upto six months of people not normally residing, before they make non dep deductions

For more clarity on this look on the shelter website re non dependants, what constitutes a family. If you can't find it will post link later

mrs_motivated

http://england.shelter.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/435439/HBCTB_2012-13_Chapter_4.pdf

Roughly paragraph 4.41

real1314

mrs_motivated wrote: »

I am not sure about Scotland law but in England. Adult non deps are defined my 'normally residing'. In your case , helping out, sleeping on sofa for two months is not normally residing and you should not have to pay. Lots of case law detailing this.

Most local authorities, based on this case law allow upto six months of people not normally residing, before they make non dep deductions

For more clarity on this look on the shelter website re non dependants, what constitutes a family. If you can't find it will post link later

If sleeping on the sofa is the only normality you have, then it is normally residing.

e.g I have my own home, where I normally reside. If I stay at a friend's for a few days I am not normally residing.

If, however I had no home, then staying at the friends would be normally residing. :cool:

Befuzzled

Thanks again, they have indeed been sleeping on the sofa, and one raggedy mattress and certainly don't 'normally reside' here, though it is the main/only place they have to stay so it depends on the interpretation of the definition. (Honestly I would tend to agree with real1314, it makes sense for them to contribute when on JSA and we would have budgeted if we had known, it's just having it so much in arrears that is the killer). The only sharing of communal spaces seems particularly relevant given my room is just for storage and they spend most of their time in the kitchen/hall/living area (my other three flatmates have been really good about this as they have had people stay before). Worth at least sending a letter off, noting the terminology and the sources of backing evidence. I'll get into googling a bit more.

The length of time they take to sort such issues though (months in my original case) could lead to it being moot by the time they get to it. It took the risk of eviction and running out of money the first time to make them move fast (magically sorted in a week after 8 months of back and forth) so perhaps this time as well.

At the very least I'll point out the definition and reasons why I feel it does not apply to see what happens. Thanks again, given me some hope at least!

PippaGirl_2

Unfortunately befuzzled, many people end up owing the DWP and/or the LA money due to ignorance of fact rather than fraud but it is still overpayment same as fraud is so does need paying back. Hopefully they will agree an affordable repayment scheme.

mrs_motivated

real1314 wrote: »

If sleeping on the sofa is the only normality you have, then it is normally residing.

e.g I have my own home, where I normally reside. If I stay at a friend's for a few days I am not normally residing.

If, however I had no home, then staying at the friends would be normally residing. :cool:

I do see what you mean, however the same would apply in the cases cited by shelter.

Also, this is a case I know.

Son gives up house, moves in with his mum. Is planning on staying four months, until his flat is ready. I phoned HB for his mum, they said ok, nothing will change unless he is there for six months and then her benefit will be reduced. They also confirmed this in writing.

Maybe the OP went wrong by not telling them. In the case above dates could be checked as when he gave his house up, the HB would have stopped on that property.