Notice of penalty assessment

heretolearn_2

You need to separate the two issues.

a) you were required to submit a return

b) the result of submitting a return may be a tax liability, no tax liability, or a refund.

there is no connection at all between these two things as far as penalties for non-submission go, you are clutching at straws there, sorry. By your logic, if you owed them money then they are ok to charge a late submission penalty, but if they owe you money, they shouldn't be allowed to. You were late submitting it, end of.

On the delay on their returning the incorrectly filled form to you, that's just par for the course I'm afraid, the onus is on you to do it correctly. To be honest I think it came back to you quite quickly considering how it can be with the HMRC at the moment. I deal with one department that is often 2 months or more delayed in even opening the post they receive and logging the contents, by their own admission. I could ring today and be told 'we are opening post from 05 August today' (example) believe it or not.

Just pay up and pronto, you won't win an argument with them over this, and the penalty will just keep going up.

Pennywise

Regardless of what the HMRC webpage says, there is NO LEGAL OBLIGATION for a company director to submit a SA tax return.

If HMRC instruct you to do one, then you, like anyone else, has to complete and submit one.

There has been a lot of comment about this on other forums (such as accountingweb) and the conclusion is always that the underlying Act of Parliament DOESN'T place any legal obligation on a director to complete a SA return per se.

So, forget the directors bit - it's a red herring.

If you really didn't receive a tax return or a notice to complete, then you've got grounds for appeal and almost certainly will be successful.

missile

Yes, I am well aware that it was my responsibility. Ignorance is no excuse etc.

I can see the justice if I were trying to avoid paying tax but as I said it seems a ridiculous to insist on a self assessment for zero income. Very unfair to penalise me for late submission when HMRC have calculated that I have actually overpaid tax.

Ofcourse I shall be paying the penalty charges. It is some consolation that after deducting all their charges from my tax refund, I am shall be in "profit"

Thanks to all for taking the time to comment.

missile

Pennywise wrote: »

Regardless of what the HMRC webpage says, there is NO LEGAL OBLIGATION for a company director to submit a SA tax return.

If HMRC instruct you to do one, then you, like anyone else, has to complete and submit one.

There has been a lot of comment about this on other forums (such as accountingweb) and the conclusion is always that the underlying Act of Parliament DOESN'T place any legal obligation on a director to complete a SA return per se.

So, forget the directors bit - it's a red herring.

If you really didn't receive a tax return or a notice to complete, then you've got grounds for appeal and almost certainly will be successful.

Hi,

I would be obliged if you could give me more information and / or point me to those other websites. :T

Pennywise

missile wrote: »

Hi,

I would be obliged if you could give me more information and / or point me to those other websites. :T

A quick google search for "sa return for director" came up with the following which are good examples of the discussions. I.e. people refer to the HMRC webpage and are then knocked back by others quoting the actual legislation which says no such thing. Classic example of HMRC ignoring statue and making up their own rules as they go along.

http://www2.accaglobal.com/uk/members/technical/advice_support/tax/income_tax/IT2012/directorssa

http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/anyanswers/do-directors-have-automatically-file-tax-return

http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/anyanswers/do-directors-have-file-tax-returns

http://forums.aat.org.uk/archive/index.php/t-32307.html

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=185981

System

Pennywise wrote: »

Regardless of what the HMRC webpage says, there is NO LEGAL OBLIGATION for a company director to submit a SA tax return.

If HMRC instruct you to do one, then you, like anyone else, has to complete and submit one.

There has been a lot of comment about this on other forums (such as accountingweb) and the conclusion is always that the underlying Act of Parliament DOESN'T place any legal obligation on a director to complete a SA return per se.

So, forget the directors bit - it's a red herring.

If you really didn't receive a tax return or a notice to complete, then you've got grounds for appeal and almost certainly will be successful.

It could go 50/50, but its probably worth a try. As the June SA statement showed a penalty, a notice to file / return had been previously issued to OP (prob around Jan/Feb 2012 based on penalty dates). The question would normally be was it correctly served - ie sent to the correct address - rather than if it was received.
They might be a little more lenient as OP had not previously completed returns and might not have been expecting one this time.

It wouldn't explaining what happened to all of the other correspondence though.

Pennywise

OP said they didn't start the company until November 2011, so wasn't a director in the 10/11 tax year, so shouldn't have been expected to do a 10/11 tax return anyway if it is based solely on being a company director. The 11/12 SA return isn't due yet, so there can't be any penalties for the 11/12 SA.

I think more than likely, the SA record has been set up wrongly. It should have been set up for the 11/12 SA return to be the first, but sounds like it's been set up to expect a 10/11 one. Then probably the system has gone into over-drive with penalties etc - I've certainly seen this scenario before.

As I say, almost certainly the penalties will be waived upon appeal.

System

Pennywise wrote: »

OP said they didn't start the company until November 2011, so wasn't a director in the 10/11 tax year, so shouldn't have been expected to do a 10/11 tax return anyway if it is based solely on being a company director. The 11/12 SA return isn't due yet, so there can't be any penalties for the 11/12 SA.

I missed that

It wouldn't alter the strict legal position - return issued, so needed to be completed. But more often than not I've found HMRC take a pragmatic view in this type of scenario.

missile

Pennywise wrote: »

OP said they didn't start the company until November 2011, QUOTE] Sorry a typo:o, I started company November 2010.

System

missile wrote: »

Pennywise wrote: »

OP said they didn't start the company until November 2011, QUOTE] Sorry a typo:o, I started company November 2010.

Ah, in which case perhaps consider post #8. Speak to HMRC about the missing correspondence - as they would have issued a fair bit before the SA statement.