bf dismissed for alleged gross misconduct - need advice for the appeal - please help

czerniacha

micflair wrote: »

THIS.

If its as serious as gross misconduct then the employee should NOT be in work while the matter is under investigation.

Put it another way, if your partner had been stealing gear from work, he would have been suspended and then sacked. The matter has to be dealt with straight away. I dont get how they can pull it out 4 weeks later. So they could just pull it out of the hat a year down the line? Im pretty sure it should have been dealt with at the next available chance, this is the avenue you should be going down. Good luck.

Thanks, I will point it out that he had discussed the incident with his Manager on the same day and he did not mention anything(no further investigation, meetings, hearings, consequences whatsoever)

The legal advice we received today didn't really come up with anything. The guy told us to be as apologectic as possible and point out it was a human error and wasn't done on purpose.

Now I think I will just state the facts as they are(like the time scale above) and then just try to make the guy take pity at bf...

Uncertain

micflair wrote: »

THIS.

If its as serious as gross misconduct then the employee should NOT be in work while the matter is under investigation.

Put it another way, if your partner had been stealing gear from work, he would have been suspended and then sacked. The matter has to be dealt with straight away. I dont get how they can pull it out 4 weeks later. So they could just pull it out of the hat a year down the line? Im pretty sure it should have been dealt with at the next available chance, this is the avenue you should be going down. Good luck.

As I have said, although this may be usual it is not a hard and fast requirement. It is also largely irrelevant in this case.

People advancing this argument are missing the main point. He has not been there long enough to have protection from unfair dismissal. The only difference it will make if this is held to be misconduct rather than GROSS misconduct is the entitlement to paid notice.

zzzLazyDaisy

Firstly, as Uncertain has pointed out, there is no rule that an employee accused of alleged gross misconduct should be suspended pending the disciplinary. Quite the opposite, while an employer may suspend an employee in these circumstances, this should only be done if the employee's continued presence in the work place might interfere with the investigation (for example if there is concern that they may seek to influence witnesses) or if there is genuine concern that the employee's presence may harm the employer's business activities. It is perfectly possible for an incident to be alleged gross misconduct, but for the employer to come to the conclusion that the employee's presence in the workplace does not constitiute a continued risk to the employer organisation. In my experience most cases of alleged GM do not result in suspension, and remember that many do not result in dismissal.

But really this is all rather futile. He has less than a year's service, and the company can dismiss him for any reason, or no reason at all, as long as it doe not amount to unlawful discrimination. The only difference, as has been pointed out, is that GM means he gets no notice pay, whereas dismissal for any other reason would require the company to pay him his contractual notice (which may be as little as one week, if the contract merely gives statutory notice).

One other point - as the disciplinary procedures clearly outline what incidents would normally be viewed as GM, and assuming this information was given to him before he breached the company's rules and procedures, then his conduct would normally fall within the definition of GM. The employer still has to show that dismissal is a reasonable response in THESE particular circumstances, but seeing as he less than a year's service that is an irrelevance.

By all means appeal, but I suspect the company are simply going through the motions.

Sambucus_Nigra

micflair wrote: »

THIS.

If its as serious as gross misconduct then the employee should NOT be in work while the matter is under investigation.

Put it another way, if your partner had been stealing gear from work, he would have been suspended and then sacked. The matter has to be dealt with straight away. I dont get how they can pull it out 4 weeks later. So they could just pull it out of the hat a year down the line? Im pretty sure it should have been dealt with at the next available chance, this is the avenue you should be going down. Good luck.

I read it that they were checking the system and even after being pulled up on it, he continued to do it and thus has been dismissed because of it.
I'm still struggling to find any gap that an appeal could exploit. Surely the point of an audit is to audit these things and if it continues, then they have to action it.

micflair_2

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

I read it that they were checking the system and even after being pulled up on it, he continued to do it and thus has been dismissed because of it.
I'm still struggling to find any gap that an appeal could exploit. Surely the point of an audit is to audit these things and if it continues, then they have to action it.

Well if he had continue to do it then yes, he has no case.

I have read it as he has done the deed, then a month later they have decided to act on it.

Surely if it was such an act of gross misconduct then they should have acted on it immediately. Whats to say within the month of no action he had done it another 15 times without being noticed? This is why the company have to act straight away.

But on the negative side, the guy will have no comeback as he has less than a years service anyway..

Sambucus_Nigra

micflair wrote: »

Well if he had continue to do it then yes, he has no case.

I have read it as he has done the deed, then a month later they have decided to act on it.
.

'also reasoning it that the system shows that after the incident he was still not locking the bulk door when driving-at some times the van was overloaded so he couldn't close them or they were faulty however it was not the case at all times'

Use of the above words suggests to me that he continued to do it...

czerniacha

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

Use of the above words suggests to me that he continued to do it...

well, the first incident was the biggest issue, he left the keys in the van and din't lock any doors/windows... (the person dismissing him said the forgotten keys is the main point)

the 'continued to do so' isn't really the same... he continued not following the procedures exactly as he should but it was a case of not locking the 'inside' door(the ones between the driver's/passenger cabin and the load) while driving around.

not that it makes a difference...

anyway I have just started to write the letter, I'll give it my best try and we'll see...

I will also write him a 'statement' of what he wants to say at the appeal meeting so he won't be saying any rubbish and I will also ask if he can bring me with(he's not in a union and I will say that it's to help him with the language issues) so I could advice him what he should be saying when asked any questions...

Good news for today is: he called the HR office to ask what their standard reference states in case of dismissal for gross misconduct and they confirmed that they don't mention it in a reference :j:j:j it will be a simple 'worked here from... until..... as a .....' :j We still have to figure out what he should say if asked for the reason for leaving at an interview tho...

czerniacha

jobbingmusician wrote: »

I don't hold out much hope for him, to be honest.

However, I would concentrate on two points if it was me arguing.

1. I didn't lock the van because it takes time and I find it affects the number of deliveries I can make in a day. Although I now understand the seriousness of this, I mistakenly believed that I was monitoring the van at all times and was not leaving the load at risk - I was certainly not wilfully failing to follow company procedures; rather, I was trying to act in the best interests of the company by making as many deliveries as possible. I now accept I was mistaken.

2. I am concerned that I have been singled out, as I understand that Mr A and Mr B have also been disciplined for this defence, but not dismissed. Although I accept that I have done wrong, I truly believe that dismissal is a disproportionate penalty.

one more question if I may?

I will be leaving the second point out as we haven't got enough info...

however now regarding the first point:

the legal advisor pointed out two things:

1) on one side we could state that he belived the van to be secured and wanted to save time however it is a 'calculated thinking' if you see what I mean? so he was aware that he isn't following the procedures, calculated the risk and took it...

2) so I think I will be leaving this out too and just write it was a simple human error and he didn't realise he left the keys there(it's what he said in the hearing) as he was in rush and that he never meant to fail to follow the procedures...

am I thinking right?

czerniacha

Hi

I just thought I will post the outcome of it...

My bf GOT this job back! :j:j:j

They decided to give him another chance as they could see that he cares and hopefully learned his lesson...

It did cost us a load of stress, arguments and hard work but it was worth it :T Also I am very impressed with the company(I was impressed with them since beginning as they treat their employees really well) and I hope that bf has a good future there

To people in similar situation: do your homework, get as much help and advice as possible, prepare yourself well and show them that you care and believe that miracles DO happen If you don't try/ask you don't get

Now... bf's friend was fired yesterday :eek: I will talk to him and see if he wants to do anything about but having the info now I would LOVE to see them being taken to the Tribunal(bf used to work for them before for several years and many times I was close to report them somewhere for treating employees like poo!) That might be a subject for another thread tho...


:A big thank you to everyone who posted :A

smooch261978

Please can anyone help or can you give me some advice? , I worked for part of a very large company in a pub and have worked for the same company for over 4 years without so much as a warning. 6 months ago a new manager started and seemed fine at first but just before xmas he had said to me , if i wanted to become his assistant manager, i must go underneath his desk, prefrably weraing a school uniform and basically do sex acts, this was said on a couple of occasions but usually upstairs in his office, he also mentioned often that my bottom looked nice in certain trousers. This is a married man of 2 children but at this time they did not live above the pub with him. He drove me 2 go doctors and i was on sick for 4 weeks over xmas, my area manager had spoken 2 me previously and i had mentioned what had been said and he did ask if i wanted to do a grievance but at the time i was on anti depressents through work and my x manager and i just asked if i could transfer to another pub, which was honoured. Not once was i told that i wasnt to talk about anything, so off i went to my new job and obviously i was asked why i had moved so i did say that the manager had said things he sholuldnt have to me, never went into detail. on my 5th day in my new job i went to start my shift and my new manager gave me a letter saying i was suspended for 2 weeks with pay for slander. i was gutted as i didnt really understand what was going on. My x manager had decided to go ahead with a grievance against me for slander. Cut along story short i attended my dissiplinary and was dismissed for gross misconduct. They hadnt even followed procedures as i was not given any statements or any paperwork to look at before hand. Apparently my area manager dismissed me saying ide been given enough time to do a grievence on my x manager and once ide read all statements , between the managers , there was so much false information. have i got a case and if so how do i go about it? , its been 9 days since i was dismissed and i still hav not recieved my letter or who to appeal to.Also i decided to go ahead with my grievence of sexual harassment against my x manager and wrote to the guy above my area manager, i got a reply within 2 days.... i dont want my job back as i dont trust them anymore but i want to know what i can do ??