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Atos "We Don't Care" Recruitment"
Comments
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Invalidation wrote: »NO SIR !
It is the fault of the present Government who allow this failed system to continue after being told by everyone it is wrong.
They could stop it today if they wished, dont try and slide the blame onto others, if someone has the power to stop something then it is THEIR fault by allowing it to continue.
So someone that starts something has no blame whatsoever, only the person that continues it?0 -
i dont know because i havent read the guidelines in detail recently but this young woman has developmental problems and from the video, she acts just like a child and logic/morals tells me that children are not sent to work! if as you & rogerblack seem to believe that isnt the case, i then said that atos should be duty bound to report cases like this which highlight severe errors in the system they are using. how can you send a woman with the development of a child out to work? its insane! it would cost far more money than it would save in carers to ensure her safety and that she stays on task...........its utterly ludicrous and i'm gobsmacked that anyone would think its in any way practical!sparkycat2 wrote: »Which descriptors?
I am less confident that it is a procedural error. ESA legislation and regulations seem to often find people fit for work who are blatantly not, and put people in to the work related activity group who are never going to be work capable, who then lose entitlment to contributions based ESA WRAG after 12 months.
I think in this case they assessed her ESA WRAG. Going by rogerblack post that would seem to probably be the correct assessment under the legislation and regulations.0 -
i dont know because i havent read the guidelines in detail recently but this young woman has developmental problems and from the video, she acts just like a child and logic/morals tells me that children are not sent to work! if as you & rogerblack seem to believe that isnt the case, i then said that atos should be duty bound to report cases like this which highlight severe errors in the system they are using. how can you send a woman with the development of a child out to work? its insane! it would cost far more money than it would save in carers to ensure her safety and that she stays on task...........its utterly ludicrous and i'm gobsmacked that anyone would think its in any way practical!
They have not said she is work capable. ESA WRAG Work Related Activity Group are not expected to look for work or to enage in paid employment. They can be required to do appropriate work related activities with non compliance resulting in benefit sanctions. ESA WRAG is also slightly less money than ESA Support Group and contributions based ESA WRAG is time limited to 12 months.
ESA is also a capability assessment, children are work capable, we do not force them to work like in Victorian times because we now view it as immoral to do so.
ESA Support Group is for those who have limited capability to do work related activities.
Since common sense and you think she should be in the support group. Here are the support group descriptors
ESA Support Group Descriptors for mental disabilities.
9. Learning tasks.
Cannot learn how to complete a simple task, such as setting an alarm clock, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder
This Support Group descriptor reflects ability to learn very basic tasks. How the person learns is not critical. It is the ability to actually learn how to do a task that is important.
The length of time taken for the individual to learn a task must be considered, for example if it has taken a person 2 years to learn a basic task, this would not be considered reasonable.
Consideration must also be given to the person’s ability to retain the skills to perform the task. For example, if the person was unable to perform the task the next day, they would be considered as not having learned the task.
10. Awareness of hazard.
Reduced awareness of everyday hazards, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, leads to a significant risk of:
(a) injury to self or others; or
(b) damage to property or possessions such that they require supervision for the majority of the time to maintain safety.
This Support Group descriptor reflects a severe level of reduced awareness about common dangers such as heat, traffic, electricity etc. The descriptor represents more than forgetfulness – it is about having the insight to know that something poses a risk.
Someone who requires supervision for the majority of time has a severe deficit to the extent that it would be unsafe for the person to be left alone for any significant length of time because they would be likely to come to harm.
11. Initiating and completing personal action (which means planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks).
Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 sequential personal actions.
This Support Group describes a severe restriction of an individual’s ability to understand how to co-ordinate actions in the correct sequence such that they successfully complete any personal actions in a logical order for example washing before dressing.
An example of 2 sequential personal actions would be washing and dressing. There must be evidence of "effective" personal action that would allow a person to complete the activities of normal day to day living.
12. Coping with change
Cannot cope with any change, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, to the extent that day to day life cannot be managed.
This Support Group represents a severe restriction in the ability to cope with any form of change. It does not represent change related to a specific area in life nor just a simple dislike of change. Their inability to cope with any change would result in such distress that they could not continue with their day to day life – even the most basic activities could not be managed
13. Coping with social engagement, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder
Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual
This Support Group descriptor reflects severe restriction of the ability to engage in any form of face to face social contact
14. Appropriateness of behaviour with other people, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder.
Has, on a daily basis, uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace.
This Support Group descriptor represents those with extreme uncontrollable behaviour. The level of behaviour that this descriptor represents would be considered completely inappropriate in a general workplace. This may be violent, aggressive or disinhibited behaviour.
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Sorry to disagree with you Roger, but this lass is obviously not fit for any kind of work or work related activity. She has severe learning difficulties, no perception of danger, I would imagine it would take her a while to learn new tasks, I don't imagine she's be much cop in social situations either.
The descriptors for ESA are atrocious.
Now even if she didn't meet the criteria for Support Group, would it not still be advisable for ATOS to be putting in the report about the severe learning disabilities so the decision maker has a clearer picture of her health and well being?4 Stones and 0 pounds or 25.4kg lighter :j0 -
Sorry to disagree with you Roger, but this lass is obviously not fit for any kind of work or work related activity.
But that is because ESA is misleading.
ESA WRAG is not fit for work, they do not have to apply for jobs or do paid employment.
ESA WRAG is can be required to undertake appropriate work related activity. If there are no appropriate work related activities that means no activities.
All ESA WRAG requires is the claimant having to attend a work focused interview, it can be deferred but not waived. If inappropriate I thnk further work focused interviews can be waived and if there are no appropriate work related activities they do not have to do any.
They are however given slightly less money than support group and contributions based ESA WRAG is time limited to 12 months.
To me it looks like she only needs to be capable of learning a simple task, and doing two simple tasks in order. If she can get out of bed get washed and get dressed some of the time, then it looks like she fails to meet the descriptor.She has severe learning difficulties,
In the video she appeared to be making a cup of tea. That is at least a simple task
If she knows not to stick her finger in a electricity socket, not to put her hand in a open flame, not to walk out into traffic or not to go out side alone. Then that would seem enough to fail to meet the descriptor.no perception of danger,
She appeared to be making a cup of tea. A kitchen is a dangerous place and hot water a hazard.
Well if she has ever learned any simple task and it took her less than two years to do so, it would seem she fails to meet the descriptor.I would imagine it would take her a while to learn new tasks,
She appeared to be making a cup of tea. She learnt how to do that.
If she is not violent, extremely distressed or acting extremely inappropriately due to being disinhibited. She would seem to fail to meet the descriptor.I don't imagine she's be much cop in social situations either.
She does not appear extremely distressed, violent or acting in a extremely inappropriate manner due to being disinhibited in the video.
They appear designed to remove or reduce eligibility to disability benefit. Not reflect real world work capability.The descriptors for ESA are atrocious.
They seem reliant on interpretation, capability can be inferred from things like being able to make a cup of tea, having a pet cat, watching TV, etc... and someone failing to meet the descriptors for support group can be blatantly incapable of ever working, just as someone failing to meet the descriptors for work related activity group can be blatantly incapable of currently working
ATOS are assessing capability using a assessment system. The DWP decision maker is applying the legislation. They do not have the discretion to legally over rule the legislation do what is morally right. A question for the medical experts is how are they in accordance to their ethical codes, a question for the medical experts, DWP decision makers and politicians is how do they sleep at night.Now even if she didn't meet the criteria for Support Group, would it not still be advisable for ATOS to be putting in the report about the severe learning disabilities so the decision maker has a clearer picture of her health and well being?0 -
sparkycat2 wrote: »But that is because ESA is misleading.
ESA WRAG is not fit for work, they do not have to apply for jobs or do paid employment.
ESA WRAG is can be required to undertake appropriate work related activity. If there are no appropriate work related activities that means no activities.
All ESA WRAG requires is the claimant having to attend a work focused interview, it can be deferred but not waived. If inappropriate I thnk further work focused interviews can be waived and if there are no appropriate work related activities they do not have to do any.
The above picture assumes that it works.
If, for example, someone decides (with no knowledge of your condition), that because you 'look fit' - you will benefit from (for example) 8 hours of 'make-work' a day, then they can assign you to this.
You can ask for this to be reconsidered, but if they do not agree to reconsider, there is no further right of appeal.
In some cases, this will merely be pointless make-work, and will not actually affect the claimants condition, other than wasting their time.
In others, it may severely worsen it.
If you are unable to do the action required (which may include up to unpaid work without limit of time) you can then be sanctioned part of the ESA. You can appeal this sanction, but it will likely take most of a year.
I am not arguing that the system is just.
I am simply arguing that unjust results do not require the system to be improperly administered, and that blame for this should not fall on the day-day administrators of the system, but the designers.
The current regulations do _NOT_ say that someone who is found to be unable to claim JSA on grounds of health must be granted ESA.
They do _NOT_ say that someone found 'fit for work' with regards to ESA must be able to perform any job at all.
They do _NOT_ say that someone who is practically unemployable due to their disabilities but fall into the 'work capability assessment' should be able to claim anything other than JSA, and be forced into futile ongoing jobsearch, with requirements that may be difficult for them, and the danger of being thrown off JSA because you're too ill, but unable to claim ESA.0 -
Unjust results are precisely what the ATOS / LiMA software was deigned to produce, the day-day administrators of the system can not .. .. no matter how hard an assessor may try to change the outcome. The 'insane' and unjust artificiality of the descriptors were contrived to feed unjust information to an unjust scoring system. So the system from the point of view of Government / DWP / ATOS works just fine.
NOTE01 : Justice is a concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, or equity
NOTE02 : InJustice is a concept of moral wrong-ness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, or equityDisclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ0 -
Sparky while I agree that it's misleading. Did you hear the lass screaming or shouting out? Is that sociably acceptable, would she be able to cross the road on her own? Would that not be classed as a danger to herself? Cup of tea is something my children have been making since around age 5 with supervision, so even with a mental age of that age, she could make a cup of tea, without being able to set the alarm clock
BTW I didn't say she was fit for work, I said she was obviously not fit for work or any form of work related activity. I'm in WRAG, so I do realise this.
I do agree that the WCA was a good idea, but for goodness sake, they need to apply some common sense to it as well as a computer program.
Fair and honest WCA is all that I would like to see, with a dash of common sense on the side
4 Stones and 0 pounds or 25.4kg lighter :j0 -
replies in redsparkycat2 wrote: »They have not said she is work capable. ESA WRAG Work Related Activity Group are not expected to look for work or to enage in paid employment. They can be required to do appropriate work related activities with non compliance resulting in benefit sanctions. ESA WRAG is also slightly less money than ESA Support Group and contributions based ESA WRAG is time limited to 12 months.
they stated "that a return to work could be considered within 12 months" but developmental problems dont just get better at the age of 29 so she will be no different in 1, 3, 6, 12 or 1012 months.Employment and Support Allowance for people in the Work Related Activity Group was never intended to be a benefit for the long term, but an interim measure for those who are expected to move into work.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CDAQxQEwAg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fviewer%3Fa%3Dv%26q%3Dcache%3ArDRaPz4ei9EJ%3Awww.parliament.uk%2Fbriefing-papers%2FSN06305.pdf%2B%26hl%3Den%26gl%3Duk%26pid%3Dbl%26srcid%3DADGEESidfw4yDusV0E1Vsl9N9IEj_VFxV2xqb8Kgx7YXTeSK4eXThhm3Rwg9iw-jv99mPt0BaKchQxxOCymtuEK78wIQyDxcLnPfSTo7jmgwVjEoJkap4CbLtuKpJUB1SvHOUnttjXO4%26sig%3DAHIEtbTZKZuydjCoSYny2DgMMjEMOP8NUA&ei=chNvUPCjIOPU0QW1lICICA&usg=AFQjCNFzcA4fIroU7TajP_cj-CAf6O1elA
ESA is also a capability assessment, children are work capable, we do not force them to work like in Victorian times because we now view it as immoral to do so.
precisely and as she has a developmental delay she is like a child so imo to even suggest she will at any point be expected to work is entirely immoral.
ESA Support Group is for those who have limited capability to do work related activities.
Since common sense and you think she should be in the support group. Here are the support group descriptors
ESA Support Group Descriptors for mental disabilities.
9. Learning tasks.
Cannot learn how to complete a simple task, such as setting an alarm clock, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder
This Support Group descriptor reflects ability to learn very basic tasks. How the person learns is not critical. It is the ability to actually learn how to do a task that is important.
The length of time taken for the individual to learn a task must be considered, for example if it has taken a person 2 years to learn a basic task, this would not be considered reasonable.
Consideration must also be given to the person’s ability to retain the skills to perform the task. For example, if the person was unable to perform the task the next day, they would be considered as not having learned the task.
you mention in another post making a cup of tea, was she alone in doing that? no. did she need prompting? yes. did we see her complete the task? no. even with the motive of enjoying a nice cup of tea, she appeared to be incapable of completing even the simplest tasks independently & safely. thered be absolutely no chance of her completing a task which she wouldnt directly benefit from.
10. Awareness of hazard.
Reduced awareness of everyday hazards, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, leads to a significant risk of:
(a) injury to self or others; or
(b) damage to property or possessions such that they require supervision for the majority of the time to maintain safety.
This Support Group descriptor reflects a severe level of reduced awareness about common dangers such as heat, traffic, electricity etc. The descriptor represents more than forgetfulness – it is about having the insight to know that something poses a risk.
Someone who requires supervision for the majority of time has a severe deficit to the extent that it would be unsafe for the person to be left alone for any significant length of time because they would be likely to come to harm.
her mum has already stated she needs one to one care and "She can't even cross the road without someone going with her; she doesn't know that if a car hits you it will kill you; she has no concept of danger."
11. Initiating and completing personal action (which means planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks).
Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 sequential personal actions.
This Support Group describes a severe restriction of an individual’s ability to understand how to co-ordinate actions in the correct sequence such that they successfully complete any personal actions in a logical order for example washing before dressing.
An example of 2 sequential personal actions would be washing and dressing. There must be evidence of "effective" personal action that would allow a person to complete the activities of normal day to day living.
didnt really see any examples of this in the video so cant really comment
12. Coping with change
Cannot cope with any change, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder, to the extent that day to day life cannot be managed.
This Support Group represents a severe restriction in the ability to cope with any form of change. It does not represent change related to a specific area in life nor just a simple dislike of change. Their inability to cope with any change would result in such distress that they could not continue with their day to day life – even the most basic activities could not be managed
again didnt really see any examples of this in the video so cant really comment
13. Coping with social engagement, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder
Engagement in social contact is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual
This Support Group descriptor reflects severe restriction of the ability to engage in any form of face to face social contact
quote from the article
The 45-minute examination was chaotic from start to finish, Anim says. Her daughter was extremely anxious and kept asking the doctor if he was going to take a blood test. She refused to sit down and hopped on and off the medical examining couch when the doctor was talking to her.
"The whole examination was very chaotic and bizarre because she was not co-operating. But in his report he has put that Ruthie sat for 45 minutes. She never sat down for more than three minutes. She was all over the place," she says. "At one point she went to the tap and washed her hands and started spraying the water everywhere. He raised his voice and said 'Stop doing that!' I said no, no, don't speak to her like that. She's got learning difficulties; she doesn't understand."
14. Appropriateness of behaviour with other people, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder.
Has, on a daily basis, uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace.
This Support Group descriptor represents those with extreme uncontrollable behaviour. The level of behaviour that this descriptor represents would be considered completely inappropriate in a general workplace. This may be violent, aggressive or disinhibited behaviour.
in the video we saw her screaming as a way of expressing herself, id say thats inappropriate and disinhibited in addition to the description of the interview from her mum above.0 -
replies in red
9. Learning tasks.
They would have to incapable of learning a simple task. The WCA Handbook includes simple tasks that would be evidence of learning ability.
Brushing teeth
Washing
Brushing hair
Turning on the television/ using basic functions on the TV remote control
Getting a glass of water
10. Awareness of hazard.
I think that maybe arguable.
Evidence of awareness in the WCA Handbook includes
Ability in the kitchen
Responsibility for pet
Ability to cope with road safety awareness
11. Initiating and completing personal action
WCA Handbook includes as evidence of ability
Getting washed and dressed
12. Coping with change
Minor change would have to disrupt the rest of the day.
WCA Handbook includes as evidence of ability
Shopping
Using public transport
13. Coping with social engagement, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder
It would have to always be precluded due to significant distress caused.
WCA Handbook includes as evidence of ability
Social interaction with family
14. Appropriateness of behaviour with other people, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder.
I think it might be arguable.
It must be daily and they must be unable to control the behaviour.
WCA Handbook includes as evidence of ability
Relationships with neighbours
Shopping
ESA assessment looks dreadful. It appears to involve having a friendly chat then use things like getting there via a bus ride and going to buy a chocolate bar afterwards and having a favorite TV show or being happy because they have a pet cat as evidence of capability which is used against them.0
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