This seller is attracting some strange bidding and buying... shill bidding?

porto_bello

With paintings, there's no getting away from the fact that an item is a one-off. So when this one sold here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AMERICAN-LANDSCAPE-SIGNED-ROBERTS-/251134624692?clk_rvr_id=389755751134&nma=true&si=yizv9SnkceAmI1ozl9EwoPJEj2k%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Then the same painting came back on sale here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ARIZONA-LANDSCAPE-BY-ROBERTS-/261098955881?pt=UK_art_Paintings_GL&hash=item3ccab5e469
my first thought was 'non-paying bidder... it happens!'

But then I noticed this very different painting had sold here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EARLY-20th-CENTURY-LANDSCAPE-FOR-RESTORATION-/261085076383?clk_rvr_id=389755966507&nma=true&si=yizv9SnkceAmI1ozl9EwoPJEj2k%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
And has now returned on sale again here, from the same seller:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EARLY-20th-CENTURY-LANDSCAPE-FOR-RESTORATION-/251151898116?pt=UK_art_Paintings_GL&hash=item3a79d1d604

20 items on sale and 2 non-paying bidders sounded very unlucky to me. I'm sure it happens, but shill bidding could be one reason, so I thought I'd check the bidding patterns...

http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=261098540442&aid=r***m&eu=m0kySiGAXTONY4CR6EhHLWGThVvSoNBN&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

Out of the thousands of paintings on eBay, here's a bidder who is bidding on 13 items and they just happen to all be from the same seller, who has only has 20 items listed in total.

And would you believe it? Here's another bidder, who out of the thousands of paintings on eBay, has bid on 16 items and all of them just happen to be from the same seller:

http://offer.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=251151534300&aid=a***a&eu=Lp16Q%2FNgU3A15v0qi9kTNYqXzX%2B9Pg2v&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

Would I be considered paranoid to have anything less than total confidence and should dismiss two cases of 100% bidding correlation against the same (rather small) seller?

hiccup123

you can report the listing and ebay would check. if shill bidding is happeneing then the seller must be ending transactions to claim back fees. ebay will see if the same buyer is bidding and how many times they have bid. They'd be able to suss it out. it should be reported in case there is shill bidding going on....it's not fair on genuine buyers

kurgon

hiccup123 wrote: »

you can report the listing and ebay would check. if shill bidding is happeneing then the seller must be ending transactions to claim back fees. ebay will see if the same buyer is bidding and how many times they have bid. They'd be able to suss it out. it should be reported in case there is shill bidding going on....it's not fair on genuine buyers

:rotfl:I love yur optimism......:T

hiccup123

kurgon wrote: »

:rotfl:I love yur optimism......:T

*rolls eyes*....i've reported someone in the past and and ebay checked into it found out there was shill bidding going on. it wasn't fair on me or other bidders. speaking from experience love!!!!

shaun_from_Africa

i've reported someone in the past and and ebay checked into it

The problem is that ebay might look into it, and on some occasions may even act on it, but the times they decide to do something are far rarer that the times they simply ignore blatent shill bidding.

A couple of weeks ago I reported one bit of shill bidding where the seller had 29 current listings and every single one had a bid placed by the same bidder (the lots included DVD's, books and a freezer).

Yes, the bidder was removed, but the seller was allowed to continue selling, and surprise surprise, 2 days later another bidder placed bids on all of the remeining items.

ebay pay lip service to shill bidding because if they were to act on all cases, they would end up losing vast amounts of money.

porto_bello

shaun_from_Africa wrote: »

ebay pay lip service to shill bidding because if they were to act on all cases, they would end up losing vast amounts of money.

Absolutely!

The 'mystery bidders' can be discovered by looking back in this seller's feedback and appear against transactions at least as far as 2005... some 7 years ago.

I stumbled on this simply situation by accident, yet - somehow - eBay's huge resources have had seven years to detect it and for reasons unclear, failed to spot the obvious correlation.

The moral of this story is that shill bidding on eBay is as easy as blatantly creating a second eBay account and bidding up your own prices - free of any fear of interference from eBay - so please be very careful what you bid on and who you are bidding against, since eBay doesn't just turn a blind eye to shill bidding out of ignorance, but has a financial incentive to do so.

If you spot bidders placing large numbers of bids, but largely only ever against the same seller, (and especially if the bids are on multiple, diverse categories of items) move on to another seller.

In addition, only place bids at the last few seconds (automatically with a sniper is easiest). This leaves any would be shill bidder without the time to respond and largely prevents a shill bidder gently pushing your price up until they reach your maximum.

soolin

I know of people whose accounts are on a warning due to shill bidding, so they do act on some. One of them I don't even think was particuarly blatant- at a quick glance (after the warning) I probably would have missed it.

Most of them came to me via colleagues or via some voluntary work I do, and most were quite indignant at having their listings removed and a warning on their account- as most considered it normal practice and thought 'everyone' did it.

porto_bello

soolin wrote: »

most were quite indignant at having their listings removed and a warning on their account- as most considered it normal practice and thought 'everyone' did it.

I'm sure shill bidders are as indignant as every over type of criminal who gets caught!

Most shill bidding still goes undetected, since most buyers either know or assume shill bidding is illegal and taking eBay at their word, never consider looking for it - I regularly find patently obvious examples ... I dread to think how many people and and how much money has been made out of shill bidding!

My eyes were first opened years ago, when I noticed a very professional looking art gallery offering a regular supply of some beautifully presented paintings. I also noticed a pattern with every listing, that starting 12 hours before every auction closed, the prices were gently and repeatedly nudged up by up by the same eBay IDs, until they reached just under the top genuine buyer's maximum.

If the shill bid IDs overdid it, and won, the painting simply reappeared on sale again a few weeks later.

I also found that the esteemed, world class art gallery was actually the address of a petrol station!

And the highly qualified resident specialist was from a European Museum with a very impressive name, which did not (and had never) existed!

soolin

Porto Bello your post made me smile.

I am a business seller but basically work out of a home office with dedicated storage so a real home set up. I have had several enquries about wholesale trade and people wanting to come to my warehouse to discuss terms about buying direct from me. I even had a production company ask me if they could send a trainee to go through my warehouse of vintage stuff to see if they could work with me to hire some of my items, they wanted to know would one day be enough to see the warehouse in full- I told them I had about 20 boxes and a quick turnover so 1 hour would be enough!

porto_bello

soolin wrote: »

Porto Bello your post made me smile.

Good show!

I tried to work out what and where the ornately decorated building on their 'ME' page was, (I'd guess somewhere in Venice) but it certainly wasn't the dilapidated building that fitted their business address on Google maps!

soolin

porto_bello wrote: »

Good show!

I tried to work out what and where the ornately decorated building on their 'ME' page was, (I'd guess somewhere in Venice) but it certainly wasn't the dilapidated building that fitted their business address on Google maps!

That is brilliant- I am just off now to hunt down a suitable warehouse looking place to photograph to give myself some gravitas, working from a small office just doesn't do it for me. I have delusions of grandeur

I do love the idea of the garage pretending to be a venetian style art gallery though!