Kitchen Virgin In Distress - Help & Guidance Sorely Needed!!

bazzie

Hi All,

I am very clueless when it comes to Kitchens so have been trying to wise up over the last few days! Every time I find a Kitchen company with something I like, it seems that there is always some sort of Dark side to be aware of so I am very cautious now of who I buy from - especially after reading some of the stories from these forums & others! There sure are a lot of "suspect" companies out there!

I know some here recommend genuine German Kitchens but are there any that are particularly good & reputable at a decent price? I had found a company called Kutchenhaus that looked awesome & had great features & design - they have bunch of youtube videos showing their Kitchens & I was very impressed but... it seems they to have not that great a reputation on here? I am also very weary of buying something from a company so far from me in case of issues & be lumbered. Any Alternatives to Kutchenhaus in London? Are genuine German Kitchens affordable for most people or comparable in price to say some of the most recommended places on here? I now know, thanks to these forums again that there are some dodgy companies that give themselves a fancy German sounding name to fool people like me!

I will be using my own builders/fitters as I have access to two really good teams & really do not want to pay over the odds for fitters from the companies & then have problems - I presume that is what most recommend here? I really want people whose work I can trust - just had way too many bad experiences with builders & the like in the past. The only issue is my builder/fitter will not recommend any Kitchen due to the nightmare of customers constantly comparing prices - he has just told me to make sure I buy decent stuff & he will fit only!!

I was initially exploring a company called DIYKitchens as it was highly recommended on a technology forum I am a member of & people had mostly extremely positive experiences & stated that they were quality products with very good service & substantial savings made. Upon looking at their products, it seems that they use the cheap & nasty MFC Chipboards for construction which I really want to avoid. Speaking generally, I find this true of many of the companies I have looked at so far - I just cannot understand how Kitchens that are made out mainly of this cheap crap can cost so astronomically much. I just assumed that these days everything - carcase, doors, shelves, backing etc would all be made out of solid MDF as that is supposed to be cheap too?

I really do not want a MFC Kitchen but is there any alternative? Can solid MDF kitchens be had at all & how much more are they?

Because of what I have read here & the recommendations, I am now more inclined (despite being tempted!) to go with someone like Howdens, Benchmarx, Magnet Trade, Wickes as I have branches fairly close to me (NW London) & spare parts can be generally available in future etc & plus being local makes me somehow feel better. I have not explored independents yet but there are a few near me but I think they offer the fancy ultra modern bespoke Italian, German & Scandanavian ones so fear they might be exorbitantly expensive - I assume that as they are in the more affluent areas around me!! Any others I should consider?

I have read here that Howdens, Benchmarx & Wickes have a sale soon & October/November is the best time to buy so will certainly look carefully at them but I would like to ask, how does one get the best deal and/or prices with them? How far can one barter with them & what is the best strategy? What is the very lowest they will go? Again, after reading on here, I will be sourcing my appliances independently!!

I have noticed most of these Kitchens have really large plinths which kind of looks odd & crap - it looks like it about 6"-8" high - ideally, I would want something a lot lower than that - is it possible?

I really have no idea what to ask from a Kitchen but understand 18mm cabinets are a must if not more & solid backs as well? I do not know what type of kitchen top to have as there are so many these days and am confused as to what the differences & benefits are & how that affects cost. Also, I have no idea on how best to design a new Kitchen or plan it out well - how does one ensure they get this absolutely correct (or as can be)? I know places like Homebase, B&Q, Wickes etc have a fancy computer design they can do but what really puts me off is that to me it seems the person they employ is just another glorified sales person whose main job is to wow you over while fancy impressive diagrams whilst suggesting every option they can sell you throughout the process with no real idea of whether what they have planned out may actually be the best layout for ones particular kitchen if that makes sense? What would folks here suggest to overcome this?

I will be simultaneously looking to have two rooms done - one is my main kitchen which is quite small - about 3.3m x 2.75m & a spare utility room with matching units that is about 3.2m x 2.1m. Because I have a conservatory, my main Kitchen is quite dark & so want something clean & clutter free - I am looking at the white gloss handle-less designs that are so popular it seems! I really hate the wasted space above most wall cabinets & would really like to maximise storage capacity - is it possible for the wall units to go all the way up to the ceiling?

I know most companies screw the soul out of you when it comes to things like plinths & interior options & fittings so would need real help there on how to avoid getting done over but also how to best plan the internals etc.

I am sure I will have plenty more questions but would appreciate any & all help & guidance through this maze - God knows I need it! By the way, I am really thick (as is probably very evident by now)!!

Thanks All!

Bazzie!

ryder72

Hi

I can understand your predicament. The kitchen world if full of smoke and mirrors. MFC is pretty much the default material for most manufacturers mainly due to its strength and cost. Benefits of MDF as a kitchen material are very debatable and for every benefit on offer, there is a negative too. Plywood is a very good alternative but very expensive. MFC kitchens will last a lifetime if looked after and considering that most kitchens are replaced in less than 20 years, over-engineering the product and putting put its price up is meaningless. Perhaps why MFC has come to be the material of choice for the industry.

I know I will get kicked for singing the virtues of German Kitchens but I will do it anyway. Its a myth that German Kitchens are expensive. They are generally dearer than anything you get at the sheds (when the sheds price them honestly rather than silly 50-75% sales) but the quality is leagues ahead. You will get plinths, handles etc included in the cost of the cabinetry rather than get charged ridiculous prices for these indispensable items. I can give you plenty or examples of quotes we have done where the furniture prices were 10-15% more than those obtained from sheds for kitchen that are generally seen as 'very high end'.

That said, the German market is similar to the British market and there are manufacturers at every rung of the market from the entry level to the top-end. This is where one needs to be careful about the brand you pay for. The one dead give away is to look at the quality of the photography/paper the brochure is printed on and the appliances shown in the pictures. An entry level kitchen in the German market (I am not going to name brands here) will typically be showcased with Whirlpool/Bauknecht, Zanker, AEG, Bosch or unbranded appliances, in line with the brands of appliances their buyers in German equivalents of sheds are likely to buy. Mid-range brands will get shown with Neff/Siemens and perhaps Miele appliances and the Higher end products will be shown with Siemens, Miele and Gaggenau appliances.

I would say that broadly speaking most German kitchens are better made than most British made kitchen BUT only if you pay a price commensurate to the brand positioning. I have known retailers (multiples) of German kitchens charge similar prices for entry level products as mid to high end German brands and this is what one might call rip-off so you need to be very careful.

The 18mm thick carcase is a red-herring IMO as the density of the carcase is as important as its thickness. A less discussed factor is the quality of internal fittings and fixtures used so look into this as well. Look at the construction of the door you are offered. A number of manufacturers (irrespective of their origin) offer foil/vinyl wraps. Its a cost-effective alternative to the real thing but they are cheaper for a reason.

In summary, I would suggest you speak to independents as well to try and find a designer who understands what you want and get a kitchen designed that you are happy with. Let them know you are getting other quotes as well and use this a basis to get a comparison on quotes. While you do this, keep a close eye on the fit and finish of the cabinets and the detailing on them and you will be surprised with what you might find.

Jaynne

As said everything is made out of chipboard in kitchens now except for the doors (well they might be chipboard but the good ones are well wrapped/laquered etc so the base material hardly matters). In the end when I fitted our kitchen (benchmarx btw which is the same as wickes) that once it was all screwed together I had no worries about how solid it was - we have heavy quartz worktops and they cause absolutely no problem.

We found that we really couldn't see a big enough difference between the good ranges of the sheds you've mentioned and most of the german suppliers. There were some differences - one of the german ones for instance had smaller plinths.

Plinths though can easily be cut down to whatever size you like but you do reduce the worktop height that way. Approx 140mm seems to be standard for UK kitchens - European ones I think are smaller.

Kutchenhaus we got a quote from but they were extremely expensive but impressively the guy was willing to stand in the pan drawers to show how much weight they took.

For us in the end we bought a good Benchmarx kitchen and spent what we saved on a good worktop (quartz) and nicer appliances. They added more to the look of the kitchen and I couldn't tell the difference for the doors we wanted between all the makers.

evokit

I will 2nd ryder on much he has put - Mfc is fine but the density - sheds buy in bulk and cheap and there boards tend to be less compressed.
You need to look at the doors dependant on stye - if modern go lacquer or veneer with over lacquer or solid wood for the shaker.
I do personally feel kutchenhaus doors do let door there show rooms for the price the will quote you, eg you will easily be 10k + regardless of size of kitchen and alot of there doors are light weight laminated and abs edged, kinda like the carcass.
The german stuff is good but i wouldnt look at kutchenhaus.
There are a few uk independants on par with the german stuff who source all parts separately and in effect have created there own brand/kitchen rather than offering all what one manufacturer sells giving more scope and better quality for the customer.
kitchens are a large investment so try and get what your happy with and the best for your budget

cddc

At the end of the day the real question is how long do you want a kitchen to last. A good UK made flatpack or rigid should last 15-20 years or so with no problems. On Monday I went to see a customer who had a Bauformat kitchen which was installed in 1986 and now wants it replacing. If it wasnt for the fact that the Oak doors were now stained and the style was very out of date, I reckon it could have lasted another 20 years or so. The carcasses were as rigid as the day they had been put in.

Yes German made kitchens are the bees knees when it comes to strength, but you pay a premium for that and though the carcasses will probably outlast you, the doors and the styling likely wont.

Two things are key... getting a designer you can work with who understands your needs, and the fitters to put the plan into action.

As long as you avoid the sell it on the night types, and get the above two things right you should not have too much to worry about.

ryder72

Just a couple of points on the comments made so far-

evokit - lots of german manufacturers made laminate doors. These are Chipboard or MDF with laminate facing applied to it and then edged. This shouldnt be confused with MFC though. For starters the doors are typically 19-21mm thick and the laminate applied is a much harder material that MFC among other differences. I have seen some local manufacturers who sell laminate doors and these doors are actually MFC with edging applied to compete with German manufacturers.

cddc - Your example of the Bauformat kitchen is typical of what I have found about German kitchens. Admittedly the gap between what German Kitchens used to be compared to British ones 15-20 years ago has narrowed but I feel its still a reasonable ones. A well looked after and properly fitted German kitchen will most likely be replaced in 20 years because the style has dated and hinges/runners have worn out.
I will show you plenty of examples of German kitchens being similar or only marginally dearer than the likes of Mereway and the quality if just no comparison. I wont compare kitchens made from PWS or similar doors with German kitchen as the material and construction used for the carcasses is hugely variable.

bazzie

Hi All,

Many thanks for the replies so far - very much appreciated! I went to three places today - first was Wickes & after waiting was treated like I was a impediment to their day despite being civil & polite - was basically told (even though the section was very quiet & the guy responsible for selling the Kitchens on duty) to read the brochure & come back when I have decided what I want. He also kept really pushing me to give him a budget multiple times & got quite irate when I did not as I was not sure myself at this stage! I explained multiple times that I know little about Kitchens & wanted help & advice first on the differences, options & what options they would first suggest before I make any decisions on what to buy - they were having none of it. I even brought with me very detailed diagrams to scale of my Kitchen & utility room with every single measurement accounted for. I left with disgust even though I had booked an appointment for this Friday. The Wickes stuff did look pretty good from my quick peruse.

Next I went to Howdens but they had a huge warehouse & a very small front office with just a few small examples of Kitchens set up - looked OK but the insides looked a little basic & not as solid/good as I thought. All I could do was take brochures but the guy there did say, they can send someone round to do a survey which was encouraging. He said, when ready, one just turns up, orders & takes it away so I presume, it must all be flat pack & pre-determined sizes? I wonder if they can accommodate for any specific sizes that I might need/want?

Finally, went to Benchmarx - They had a bigger showroom with more Kitchens on display & tbh, they looked exactly like the Howdens ones. I really did not like the range, quality & options on some of the tops but maybe they just had a partial selection on show. There was guy being served & I had to wait over an hour while they discussed the plans which was frustrating but it at least showed that the staff really did spend time with the customer with the aim to give the best options which was very encouraging. I will probably go to see them again this weekend if they can fit me in. I found the same thing with Benchmarx Kitchens as with Howdens - I really did not think that the interior quality & fittings were that great tbh but maybe i am being overly critical?

What do people think of me Mereway Kitchens? How do they compare in terms of price & quality with Howdens & Benchmarx? They have a Futura Range that looks quite nice but they only operate through independent Kitchen shops - they gave me the name of the nearest one & as I though, it was in the more better part of town!! I will take a visit anyway.

I will go to Magnet Trade tomorrow if I can & target some independents as well - they have some really fancy ones & I have a feeling they will be for the super rich only - they do ranges like Alno & In-ToTo etc? I wish I could find a easy to use design kitchen design site on the web it it is proving elusive so far! I will also try & find some independents so offer decent German ones that can be considered price wise as well - I am in NW London, so if anyone knows any, please let me know!

Thank You All!

Bazzie!

Melaniep101

I could be wrong, but I think Benchmarx are Wickes' suppliers for kitchens, so if you saw something you liked in Wickes, Benchmarx may do the same kitchen.

Our Benchmarx kitchen is great, and we had many different layouts designed by our Benchmarx planner, nothing was too much trouble.

We just bought the actual kitchen from them, worktops and appliances I sourced elsewhere as there were more competitive prices out there.

Good luck!

Jaynne

Funnily we had the exact same experience with Wickes - the salesperson was terrible. We turned up for an appointment and the salesperson kept us waiting then sent a colleague out saying sorry we can't do better than the quote you already have! The irony being we were standing by a sign that said we will match any quote.

The quality of the benchmarx interiors and I'm assuming you mean the internal gadgets not just a plain cupboard does vary - the same went for Howdens as far as I could tell. The good news is if you don't like them you can buy better elsewhere. They have for instance a plastic rotating corner unit that the salesperson agreed wasn't great but they do have better options for that one. Howdens and Benchmarx all have a very standard size and you will have no problem getting things like pullouts from elsewhere.

Their drawers are all fine as far as I could tell and use Blum fittings - we have a 900mm pan drawer with heavy pots in it and it runs very nicely and the bottom is quite thick board supported and screwed in well all round so its not going to sag. Benchmarx offer a lifetime guarantee on cabinets as well.

Howdens and Benchmarx keep virtually everything in stock in their warehouses - we ordered on a Thursday and they delivered virtually everything on Monday. They only have a certain range of carcass sizes but they are all built up already. Admittedly they are cam and dowel but once you screw them to each other and the wall it doesn't make a difference they aren't going anywhere.

Don't worry about the worktop choices - you can buy them anywhere as they are again a very standard depth.

Mereway looked nice and had some doors that were gorgeous but you pay for that - we couldn't justify the extra especially since we quite liked the white handle-less ones which weren't any better than Benchmarx as far as we could tell.

Jaynne

To the above both Wickes and Benchmarx are owned by Travis Perkins and virtually all the ranges overlap.

loveprada

Bazzie, I'm in a situation where I want to replace my kitchen. I know what I want - I have the plans ready. The kitchen is from Ikea and I want to reuse my appliances as they are just fine. I'm having difficulty finding someone who will do this. Could you possibly let me know the name/number of your kitchen builders via PM? I'm also in NW London. Thanks.