For the attention of Crabman

AlexisV

"appeal" is a misnomer. British Telecom made the point in the consultation process regarding internet copyright infringement notices - you can't appeal a decision that is not binding in law. After all, if your electricity invoice is incorrect, you don't appeal, you complain to your supplier.

By all means challenge a company that sends you a speculative invoice, but I wouldn't call it an appeal.

taffy056

AlexisV wrote: »

"appeal" is a misnomer. British Telecom made the point in the consultation process regarding internet copyright infringement notices - you can't appeal a decision that is not binding in law. After all, if your electricity invoice is incorrect, you don't appeal, you complain to your supplier.

By all means challenge a company that sends you a speculative invoice, but I wouldn't call it an appeal.

You probably right there, but lets face it when you take it to POPLA - Parking on Private Land Appeals is called that I think that basically it will become known as an appeal, no matter if in law its not binding on you.

RENEGADE_2

Congratulations AlexisV, you anticipated my next remark.

Councils. Indeed I have appealed to councils and normally with success. The most common scenario for me has been the ticket displacing itself as I shut the door. Technically I have not displayed but a letter of apology coupled with a copy of a valid ticket from the time the penalty was issued has been enough to soften the person handling appeals. Even then comes assurance from me that I will be careful in future, and a routine warning from the council that they will not be so lenient if it happens next time.

But let's lets look closer at this matter. If the council wrongfully issue a penalty ticket: let's say he looked at his watch on the last day of October which he forgot to adjust when the clocks went an hour back. In such a case I would have no fear in denying the claim even to the council, and would not fret even should they discard my rejection. When you're in the right, you're in the right.

So - in light of what we have just gleaned. Think again. Joe Bloggs comes here in October stating that he has received an invoice for an unpaid parking charge demanding £50 for overstaying in a free car park as he is the keeper. We advise him to act so as to screw the PPC - agreed so far. But this action. Do you still say it should be an "appeal"?

taffy056

What difference does it make honestly? No matter the arguments on whether its an appeal, we are advising taking it to POPLA who has appeal in the acronym , for all intents and purposes for the layman looking at this, which means the person looking for advice, its an appeal.

The reason why we are going to advise going that route, is that its going to cost the PPC money, that is the whole purpose of this from our point of view. From the PPC point of view I believe they will be dropping the invoice once someone mentions POPLA as their invoices cannot hold any merit if its done correctly, if the appeal goes against the motorist the advise of ignore unless stamped court papers arrive will be advised.

Coupon-mad

RENEGADE wrote: »

So - in light of what we have just gleaned. Think again. Joe Bloggs comes here in October stating that he has received an invoice for an unpaid parking charge demanding £50 for overstaying in a free car park as he is the keeper. We advise him to act so as to screw the PPC - agreed so far. But this action. Do you still say it should be an "appeal"?

Well he doesn't have to use that word. He could say to the PPC that he denies any liability, thinks the PCN is a pile of rubbish with no lawful basis and if they don't agree he requires the matter to be considered by POPLA.

But I suspect that a referral to POPLA will involve filling out a standard sheet with a tick box for your 'grounds' so it will look like an appeal. Makes no difference to me, I do plan to get a fake PCN pretty soon in October and wouldn't worry what a PPC wants to call my letter as long as it costs them £32+ and that POPLA get yet another case in the backlog.

taffy056

The thing about going to POPLA is that it will all be on the paperwork submitted, there will not be face-to-face meetings, or telephone calls. So I guess its going to be a trial and error to see what is allowed and what is not. The AOS PPCs though are in the same boat I think, oh all except perky

RENEGADE_2

I am only trying to establish a final solution to prepare ourselves for the post-October 2012 influx of new posts from the next batch of victims so it is essential that we who frequently contribute to this site speak with one voice. We hitherto advised to ignore from the outset and we supported this by citing disadvantages as to why it doesn't help to make noises in the process of the routine.

With fundemental changes to the system, the last thing we need is a split community: you and Coupon Mad saying "appeal" and HO87 and AlexisV saying "deny". You'll get bickering among the seasoned users and it won't help the newbie who'll be scratching his head not knowing which advice to take!

So what are we agreed on?
Scenario 1 - "PCN" attached to window. Is this the point where we begin fightback proceedings? I very much doubt it. Advice until now was to wait to see whether the antagonist will pursue the case. Besides, we all know it is possible for someone to remove the notice and nobody can prove it was there when you returned to your vehicle. OK?

Scenario 2 - A keeper has received a postal invoice from the PPC informing him that regardless who was driving, protocol now dictates that he as RK is responsible for dealing with the PPC and such he is. This is the point where we advise the victim to reply and not ignore - I however shall at this point pledge to advise our friend to follow appeal procedure, but to avoid use of that word and to deny the demand in his communication - atleast if we know what the PPC is demanding is a de facto penalty.

Scenario 3 - The filth have turned down the target's rejection on account of the terms within the signage, treating it as an appeal and declaring the outstanding figure still payable. We now advise the victim to write to POPLA - again, the move mirrors appeal procedure but refrains from using the A* word. This letter we recommend be drafted in a polite tone, the author explaining his awareness of wrongful demands according to Contract Law rather than throwing the book at them as he would the PPC.

Scenario 4 - POPLA has chosen to insert its tongue into the PPC rectum by rejecting the target's rationale. I gather from this point our unanimous advice will be to ignore all as previosly.


Is this the correct listing?

Coupon-mad

It's a bit more complicated, so it's as per HO87's post #8 on page one plus clarification about Scotland, Wales and NI.

But I don't think we need faff about with this any more right now. I am seeing what pepipoo suggest, personally, and will sing from their hymn sheet.

taffy056

Wales will definitly implement all of the freedoms act, the bpa actually says it, and I have searched this online and it's a fact. Scotland and NI are not part of this, though scotland banned clamping years ago. So we need to know exactly where the alleged problem took place before we advise anything first.

RENEGADE_2

Just one thing. I'm not ticking any "appeal" box myself. I intend also to game the system by trying the little runts. Naturally I will not do something discourteous to other drivers, but I quite fancy leaving my car where rogue cowboys once clamped - and we all know the car being there is hardly disruptive when their action may poitentially keep the vehicle there for ever. After all, it will require experience when it comes to offering advice. If forced to tick "one or the other", it will remain blank and the remainder of the letter shall clarify my position.