Do i own the land if I buy an ex-council house?

matt0907

Hi guys,

I have few questions regarding to my recent house purchasing.
Basically I am buying an ex-council house. The tenure on the contract say it is freehold. So I assume what I am buying is the building and the land. But after reading the land registry TP1 paper(Transfer of part of registered titles), I start to doubt if I am right about it. The following are some of the information from this paper.

1.1 retained land is the land comprised in the title number(excluding the property).
1.2 References to the owners of the property are to the Transferee and it's successors in title to the property and references to the owners of the retained land are to the Transferor and it's successors in title to the retained land
1.3 References to the property include the whole and every part of the property and references to the retained land include the whole and every part of the retained land.
6.1 Section 62 Law of property Act 1925 and the rule in "Wheeldon V Burrows"do not apply to this transfer and no legal or other rights are granted over the retained land for the benefit of the property.

Obviously the transferee is me the buyer and transferor is the seller. Since I can't really find any word in the document define the property is the building and land all together. To me it sounds like I seem only to buy the building without the land even it says it's freehold. This really make me confused now. I hope if anyone can give me advise on this. But there is one thing I have to mention which is the seller is housing association that still own the houses surround it.

My second question is I have quite a bit of restrictive covenants that come with this property. Some of them seem to be quite weird to me.The following are the copy from the document.

5.7 No trees or shrubs now standing or afterwards planted by the Transferor on the property pursuant to any landscaping scheme required by local authority shall be cut down or in any way interfered with without the prior written approval of the local authority and any such trees or shrubs which shall die wither or perish shall forthwith be replaced.
5.11 Not to build or erect on the property any new building or structure not to make any alternations or additions affecting the structure construction or external appearance of any existing buildings or boundary walls except in either case in accordance with plans elevations sections and specification previously approved by the Transferor such approval not to be unreasonably withheld or delayed and the local planning authority and to pay the reasonable charges and expenses of Transferor in dealing with any such approval.

It sounds like the Transferor still have right on my property even after the transfer. For example, the garden is now in a mess with over grown grass everywhere in the garden. I am wondering how do I know what and which trees and shrubs are under landscaping scheme. And in 5.11 it sounds like I would need approval by Transferor for making changes to my house.

It will be very very appreciated if anyone can help clear out my questions.

matt0907

I did ask my solicitor. However she is so unreliable. Not only she always reply me very slow but also never give me a clear answer. I did asked her few plain and straight questions, but only get very simple answer. She didn't really bother to answer me properly.

Fire_Fox

Welcome! If you do not trust them you need a new conveyancer: this is tens of thousands of pounds you are spending, this must be done right. Do you have a diagram/ plan of what you are buying with the area outlined?

Yes ex social housing properties often have restrictive covenants, that is to protect the adjacent HA properties and land. The alternative is to purchase a house that has always been in private ownership.

matt0907

Due to HSBC bank insisted that I have to use their panel firm. So the solicitor was appointed by them, otherwise I will have to pay the cost of their solicitor. So I didn't really have much choices at the time.
I do have the plan of the property I am buying. It is colored in red on the plan. The red area does include building and garden. I am wondering is this enough to say the purchasing is including building and land?

For the restrictive covenants, do you mean if I buy a fully private freehold house it probably wouldn't come with any restrictions?

Thanks for the reply.

Fire_Fox

matt0907 wrote: »

Due to HSBC bank insisted that I have to use their panel firm. So the solicitor was appointed by them, otherwise I will have to pay the cost of their solicitor. So I didn't really have much choices at the time.
I do have the plan of the property I am buying. It is colored in red on the plan. The red area does include building and garden. I am wondering is this enough to say the purchasing is including building and land?

For the restrictive covenants, do you mean if I buy a fully private freehold house it probably wouldn't come with any restrictions?

Thanks for the reply.

Surely HSBC don't only have one conveyancer but a firm/ group of them? If so say that you are unhappy with the communication and speed and ask for another one to take over your case. You need to run this by a professional, we cannot see the plans and we cannot read the entire contract. It's tens of thousands of pounds you are spending so pay another conveyancer to check it over if needs be - there is moneysaving and there are false economies.

Any property may have restrictive covenants, just more likely with ex social housing because the old owner still 'lives' next door so still has a vested interest in what you do with the house. Also the restrictive covenants are more likely to be enforced.

Owain_Moneysaver

matt0907 wrote: »

5.7 No trees or shrubs now standing or afterwards planted by the Transferor on the property pursuant to any landscaping scheme required by local authority shall be cut down or in any way interfered with without the prior written approval of the local authority and any such trees or shrubs which shall die wither or perish shall forthwith be replaced.
5.11 Not to build or erect on the property any new building or structure not to make any alternations or additions affecting the structure construction or external appearance of any existing buildings or boundary walls except in either case in accordance with plans elevations sections and specification previously approved by the Transferor such approval not to be unreasonably withheld or delayed and the local planning authority and to pay the reasonable charges and expenses of Transferor in dealing with any such approval.

It sounds like the Transferor still have right on my property even after the transfer. For example, the garden is now in a mess with over grown grass everywhere in the garden. I am wondering how do I know what and which trees and shrubs are under landscaping scheme. And in 5.11 it sounds like I would need approval by Transferor for making changes to my house.

The conditions are not unusual for houses built on an estate, whether council or private, and protect you from your neighbours deciding to paint their house something outlandish.

In respect of the garden, you write to the council and ask for a copy of the landscaping scheme in force. Most likely restrictions would be retaining the fence or hedge in existing style, and not block paving over your front lawn to make a parking space.

For the house, you would need permission if you want to put up a shed or garage, add stone or PVC cladding, etc. You won't need permission for routine maintenance and replacement with similar materials/finishes.

Richard_Webster

Legally you buy land with whatever is on it. The house is attached to the land so you get that as well!

References to "retained land" are references to other parts of the estate that the Council has not sold. In order to enforce covenants it needs to show what land is benefited by them, hence the reference to "retained land".

The covenants are pretty typical and frankly you will find similar covenants on most new private estates. If you want to make alterations you will need to get consent under the covenants from the Council as well as any Planning or Building Regulation approvals.

Land_Registry

Richard Webster has summed it up just before I posted but the following may also be helpful here

As far as the concern re the property/land is concerned this may be quite straightforward to understand - 1.1 retained land is the land comprised in the title number(excluding the property).

Remember that the transfer if of PART i.e. a TP1 and it will therefore refer to the title number owned by the seller of which the property is currently part. The retained land is defined to exclude the property being sold.

I suspect that you already understand this as your final comment is 'But there is one thing I have to mention which is the seller is housing association that still own the houses surround it. ' and you also refer to 'I do have the plan of the property I am buying. It is colored in red on the plan. The red area does include building and garden.' - the property you are buying should be the house and land included within the red edging

As far as the restrictive covenants are concerned the advice provided by both Fire Fox and Owain Moneysaver seem sound. The seller should be able to explain/define any landscaping scheme referred to or at least explain how they view such things - it may be that they landscape and maintain trees etc on their adjoining land and are wary of house owners interfering with them when they overhang for example but some clarification might be worthwhile if you are intending to do more than just cut the grass?

And in 5.11 it sounds like I would need approval by Transferor for making changes to my house. - you clearly understand the implications re this clause.
The council can clarify again if you wish although I have seen other posters to threads on this forum recommend looking at the other ex-council houses nearby to see what changes (if any) they have made and asking them whether it created any issues etc for them. Whilst that does not necessarily guarantee anything it may offer some reassurance.

The important thing to remember here though is exactly what the other posters have said - you must rely on your conveyancer to supply answers to any questions/concerns you might have. It is they who provide the legal advice upon which your purchase will be based.

matt0907

Hi Guys,

Very appreciated for quick and useful respond.

It looks like I was a little bit worry too much about that retained land and property issue. I was wondering why they don't use more plain English to define all those in the documents like "References to the property include the whole and every part of the property and land..." ,rahter than just not mention about land.

For the landscaping scheme, should I just ask my solicitor to get this information from seller? To be honest I asked her this question about how do I know what or which trees or shrubs under the scheme and shall not to cut down...etc. She basically replied to me: Please look at the property - I have not seen it. Basically I feel she doesn't really bother to care about what I concern.

and to 5.7 "No trees or shrubs now standing or afterwards planted by the Transferor on the property pursuant to any landscaping scheme...." I also concern about "now standing or afterwards" in the sentences. I am wondering why they still have right on planted new trees in my land. or I just misunderstood about it?

GDB2222

matt0907 wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Very appreciated for quick and useful respond.

It looks like I was a little bit worry too much about that retained land and property issue. I was wondering why they don't use more plain English to define all those in the documents like "References to the property include the whole and every part of the property and land..." ,rahter than just not mention about land.

For the landscaping scheme, should I just ask my solicitor to get this information from seller? To be honest I asked her this question about how do I know what or which trees or shrubs under the scheme and shall not to cut down...etc. She basically replied to me: Please look at the property - I have not seen it. Basically I feel she doesn't really bother to care about what I concern.

and to 5.7 "No trees or shrubs now standing or afterwards planted by the Transferor on the property pursuant to any landscaping scheme...." I also concern about "now standing or afterwards" in the sentences. I am wondering why they still have right on planted new trees in my land. or I just misunderstood about it?

One of my pet hates is that conveyancers never see the property they are conveying. You cannot expect her to come round and advise you about the planting scheme, pointing out individual trees to you. You need to talk to the Housing Association/Council about this, get a copy, and understand it yourself. Surely, you can read a plan as well as anyone?