Self-Employed Cleaner - Would You?

coupleuk

WoW - certainly a mixed bag there.

1. If you look at your local supermarket these days, they contract out their cleaning work - and those cleaners (nearly always) do the work when the place is closed to the public.

2. If the cleaning work was contracted out to a self-employed person (company) I would have no problem who did the work as long as it was done on time and to a high standard. IE they could take holidays, sick etc whenever they like but as the cleaning contract is their business its upto them to cover the job or risk losing the contract.

3. The references given to HMRC dont apply as the role/s would be self-employed under a contracted agreement.

SO - back to the original question ( :rotfl: ) - would anyone take on such a role given that their hourly rate would equate to c£7.33ph.

For those that have cleaned hotel rooms, is 45min a good indication of the time to clean one room.

Thanks

PS Ive had 20 years of employing/managing staff so I think Im qualified to ask the legitimate question.

PPS Given the number out of work, Im suprised that not one person has asked how such a thing would work etc.

LL30

£7.33 an hour. No. If NMW is £6.09 (ish) how on earth is someone supposed to cover everything else involved concerning being SE with the £1.20 odd left?

I've got an SE cleaner and I think she's cheap at £10 an hour.

sniggings

LL30 wrote: »

£7.33 an hour. No. If NMW is £6.09 (ish) how on earth is someone supposed to cover everything else involved concerning being SE with the £1.20 odd left?

I've got an SE cleaner and I think she's cheap at £10 an hour.

I agree, £7.33 is too low, I am starting a cleaning business and charging £10-£12ph.

You say you wonder why no one is jumping at this, try offering a decent wage then.

You say no NI and no TAX on the wage as they will be earning not enough, that comment alone shows you are not expecting them to be working anywhere else, so not self employed at all and if they do work elsewhere, NI and tax, holiday pay, sick pay, travel cost, work tools, insurance...the list goes on, will not leave much out of £7.33.

I love it when you hear people say, "see they don't want to work" etc but they don't shout about how little they are willing to pay.

coupleuk

ll30 wrote:

£7.33 an hour. No. If NMW is £6.09 (ish) how on earth is someone supposed to cover everything else involved concerning being SE with the £1.20 odd left?

What is "everything else" ?

If he/she was directly employed by me, he/she would still need to get to work - the SE option allows him/her to claim certain travel expenses.

If he/she works part-time (which is what this would be) he/she won't earn above the annual tax allowance, so no tax/ni to worry about.

He/she wouldn't need an accountant (but might feel comfortable using one in year 1 = cost under £100).

He/she can complete a very easy self-assessment online should HMRC request them to do so.

This is an opportunity for someone to actually start a small business with zero outlay which they could keep low key (ie just me) or attempt to expand and take on their own staff.

Of course this option helps me - if they are useless, I can choose not to renew their contract - likewise if they want to sit and drink tea all morning and have fag breaks every 5 minutes. Sadly, employed staff aren't so easy to change.

I dont give any apologies for this view - it makes sense for both parties; work hard and finish earlier - sit and chat and just earn NMW and lose the contract.

coupleuk

sniggings wrote:

You say you wonder why no one is jumping at this....

LOL - that's not what I said at all is it !!

I said

would anyone take on such a role given that their hourly rate would equate to c£7.33ph.

and also

Given the number out of work, Im suprised that not one person has asked how such a thing would work etc.

Given that so many are cleaning at NMW, I am suprised.

BTW, I currently earn £7.16/hour after paying £1,200 to get qualified, £100 for my medical and £500 every 5 years for further mandatory training - oh, and I cant claim the cost of getting to work as an expense.

sniggings

coupleuk wrote: »

LOL - that's not what I said at all is it !!

I said and also

Given that so many are cleaning at NMW, I am suprised.

BTW, I currently earn £7.16/hour after paying £1,200 to get qualified, £100 for my medical and £500 every 5 years for further mandatory training - oh, and I cant claim the cost of getting to work as an expense.

Given the number out of work, Im suprised that not one person has asked how such a thing would work etc.

is what you said which is near enough the same thing.

You seem not to understand the extra expenses involved in running a business, if you are running a business yourself I'm surprised at, unless you contract that out as well

Cleaning at min wage is not the same as cleaning and being self employed, insurance alone will be around £100 a year, thats nearly 2 weeks earnings, then NI and Tax and tools and transport (yes employed pay transport too but don't need a car to carry tools from one job to the next so can't choose to walk or get the bus or have time to do any of those, so a car is needed) holidays too need to be saved for or paying someone else to cover them, 4 weeks a year or even 2 weeks is again £100-200, as said the list goes on.

I understand what you are trying to do, find someone that wants a bit of pocket money, so not really self employed but finding someone like that is going to be hard, not many people can work and it doesn't affect their benefits in some way, you then run the risk of them cheating the benefits or you being caught for avoiding paying staff NI and Tax.

For me, doing it correctly will be less work than what you are planning.

Notmyrealname

3. The references given to HMRC dont apply as the role/s would be self-employed under a contracted agreement.

Sorry, doesn't work like that. Every single person and company who were prosecuted under IR35 had a contracted agreement. A contracted agreement means nothing if HMRC decide the position wasn't self employed.

coupleuk wrote: »

SO - back to the original question ( :rotfl: ) - would anyone take on such a role given that their hourly rate would equate to c£7.33ph.

Hell no. Holday pay and employers NI form approximately 25% of the rate an employee gets so you need to be compensating a self employed person at least that so for NMW we're already over £7.50/hr.

Then there is the additional to factor in for the fact it is not guaranteed set work and there is no notice etc.

I would expect £8+ at the very minimum.

PS Ive had 20 years of employing/managing staff so I think Im qualified to ask the legitimate question.

PPS Given the number out of work, Im suprised that not one person has asked how such a thing would work etc.

Yet in that 20 years you seem not to have learned what HMRC's rules are in regards to what is classed as self employment.

Can you give me answers to the following questions? I just need a yes or no.

1) Do they have to do the work themselves?
2) Will you or someone at the hotel tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
3) Can they work a set amount of hours?
4) Can someone move them from task to task?
5) Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
6) Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
7) Can they hire someone to do the work instead of themselves or engage helpers at their own expense?
8) Do they risk their own money?
9) Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves or do you?
10) Do they do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
11) Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services or do you decide what needs doing, how and when?
12) Do they regularly work for a number of different people or just mainly you?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?

PasturesNew

If they were self-employed they'd need to employ somebody to do the work for them when they went off on their holidays, or were sick ..... you'd not expect them to text you and go "Oh well, !!!! happens... off to the beach .... see you in 2 weeks". They'd be having to pay somebody else £12-15/hour to cover their random missed shifts.

Also, if somebody DID take you up on your offer - HMRC will compare how they work against their tick list of "Self Employed or Not", decide that they were employed by you anyway - then hit you with any tax bill and you'd be liable for holiday pay, perhaps maternity/paternity pay etc.

You can use self-employed cleaners, but use a firm and pay the rate they're asking for the job.

Uncertain

coupleuk wrote: »

3. The references given to HMRC dont apply as the role/s would be self-employed under a contracted agreement.

Oh yes they do!

Although don't seem to want to accept it there are ever tightening rules about what constitutes employment. What you and the "self employed contractor" choose to call it has no bearing on the matter.

OK, if you can find people with their own equipment who are working for a number of clients etc etc then you MAY get away with it. The problem is that if they are working for you in a manner that would normally be expected of an employee then even that may not be enough.

Also, the limited company dodge is no longer foolproof. Even then your "contractor" would need other evidence to show that he really was a business.

Ultimately, if this goes pear shaped, YOU will be responsible for the tax and NI you should have deducted etc etc.

There is an interactive guide on the HMRC website to help you decided if somebody is really an employee - it may open your eyes.

coupleuk

1) Do they have to do the work themselves?

No

2) Will you or someone at the hotel tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?

No - once the work is agreed (ie level of cleanliness) and they are informed what needs doing on what days ie a Contract is made.

3) Can they work a set amount of hours?

No - they would work to get the job done that they are contracted to do.

4) Can someone move them from task to task?

No - unless spot cleaning (for H&S) was needed which formed part of their normal duties anyway.

5) Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?

As and when they submit invoice - can be weekly or monthly in arrears but agreed at start.

6) Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?

No - but there may be extra work IF they chose to accept it.

7) Can they hire someone to do the work instead of themselves or engage helpers at their own expense?

Definately - as long as service standards are maintained.

8) Do they risk their own money?

Perhaps - if they work for a month, issue an invoice and I go bust then yes it would be their risk.

9) Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves or do you?

What - a couple of cleaning cloths? I would supply hoover as I would need it to do any cleaning when they arent around ie spilt bag of crisps at 11pm in corridor.

10) Do they do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?

Yes. The fixed rate would cover a set amount of work - if they do work in 1hr or 3hrs its upto them. It should at very least meet NMW. There will be extra work available.

11) Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services or do you decide what needs doing, how and when?

Of course I decide what needs doing - exactly the same as any contract. The contractor doesnt decide what job they want to do, only what they think the job will cost them.

12) Do they regularly work for a number of different people or just mainly you?

Probably just me but they can go into marketplace to get extra work and then employ staff to do it. It maybe an established company who wants the extra work.

Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?

Yes - but if the work was not to standard on a regular basis the contract would be cancelled - just the same as any contractor.